Become a Resilient Leader | Ian Finch

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Sadaf Beynon: Hey, everyone. While we're busy recording some fresh new episodes for the Push To Be More podcast, I wanted to bring back an incredible conversation Matt Edmundson had with Ian Finch, CEO of Mando Agency. Ian shares his journey from the early days of scraping by to leading a successful digital agency that partners with big names like JCB and British Red Cross.

We dive into the ups and downs of running a business, the importance of just showing up, and And How To Push Through Challenges With Resilience And Determination. Ian's story is packed with insights about creating a sustainable future for your company and his personal mission to be better today than he was yesterday.

Whether you're a business leader, an entrepreneur, or someone looking to improve yourself, Ian's wisdom is truly inspiring. So if you're looking for motivation, [00:01:00] practical advice, or just some great stories about turning passion into impactful action, this episode is for you.

Matt Edmundson: Welcome to Push To Be More, with me your host Matt Edmundson. A show that talks about the stuff that makes life work. And to help me do just that, right here at the launch, I thought of no one better than the right Reverend Ian Finch to get on the podcast with me. My good friend Ian from Mando.

About how to create a sustainable future for your company. Uh, how when you are better, everything is better. And we're going to be talking about his desire to be better today than he was yesterday. I'm loving this music by the way. Oh yes. Uh, the show notes and transcript from my conversation with Ian are available on our website, pushtobemore.

com. Uh, on our website you can also sign up for our newsletter and each week we will email you these links, uh, from the show. Uh, the transcripts, all that kind of good stuff, automagically direct to your [00:02:00] inbox, totally free, totally amazing, so make sure you go to PushToBeMore. com. So all of that said, let's talk about you, Ian. Ian is the CEO of Mando Media. Agency, Mando focuses on engineering positive change in organisations through specialist product development teams.

Ian is also a husband, a dad, a mental health advocate. A big fan of outdoor pursuits and a yoga devotee, and it's probably fair to say, Finch, a big Liverpool Football Club fan as well. Indeed. Welcome to the show.

Ian Finch: It's good to be here. And three podcasts in, I think you're ready for TV. Like, you've got the X Factor boy, so excited.

I'm ready for the judges to come out. I'm loving it. Yeah, it's

Matt Edmundson: brilliant isn't it? I used to have on my LinkedIn bio that I was a [00:03:00] frustrated Frustrated Radio 2 DJ Wannabe, so I started podcasting instead.

Ian Finch: Oh well, I think you're well past Radio 2, I think you're on the music awards, you know, we got Eurovision.

I'm coming to Liverpool pretty soon, you just need a handful more of these to go viral.

Matt Edmundson: That would be awesome, wouldn't it? Yeah, yeah. So yeah, if you're listening to this Mr Eurovision Song Contest people, then both Ian and I will quite happily host together. It'd be quite good fun. So. Good

luck.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no, it's awesome.

Thank you for your kind words, by the way. You're way too kind. It's just very kind of you. I've got a really good friend of mine called Tony, actually. He tells me that I've got, he always tells me I've got a good face for radio.

So here we [00:04:00] are, number one, episode number one. Thank you for being the guinea pig, uh, and being on the very first show. Yeah, it's great, man. Now we've done podcasts together before we've got, I've got an eCommerce podcast. You've been on that. And I thought actually this one's aimed a bit wider, a bit more at sort of leaders and entrepreneurs and stuff.

And I thought you'd be great to talk about this. So let's start off. Uh, I said, uh, you know, you're the CEO of Mando. Just tell us a little about, uh, tell us a little bit about Mando Agency. So

Ian Finch: yeah, sure, Mando's a digital agency, but we're a very, kind of, digital agency. It's all technology centric and perhaps more like an IT consultancy, and so it's very much managed services, professional services, consultancy services in that digital change space.

So we will run your digital estate, uh, in Optimize it, evolve it, bring in new technologies, do systems integration. So we only have a few programs of work every year in a relatively lightweight customer base. It's just that we do a lot for [00:05:00] those customers, like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of Mondays a year for each of those customers.

So it's, yeah, it's very much in that, that, um, strategic consultancy and engineering kind of place.

Matt Edmundson: And it's fair to say, I mean, that all sounds, if I'm honest with you, from my point of view, it sounds really impressive. It sounds a bit nightmarish when you're doing that much for one client, right, um, in one sense, but it's, um, see I'm from eCommerce, you don't do that much for clients, you take that money and you ship them products, right, uh, but so it's very different in some respects to what you guys are doing and, um, I know you've had really long term successful client relationships because you, you guys do that.

Do that super well, right? And you care for people really well. But it's fair to say that on your journey, you didn't always start out as you are right now. I mean, you know, the early days were not like what they are. Is that fair enough?

Ian Finch: Yeah, absolutely. We've been going a long time. I'm 25 years in. Yeah. [00:06:00] As of, as of September, actually, um, uh, and in the early days, like, like any startup, you get work really where you can, um, particularly when you're, you're 21, figuring out what's going on in life as well.

So, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't this big strategic plan. You know, if I, if I did a startup tomorrow, I'd do it very differently, a lot more focused, but, um, but yeah, we learned our, we learned our trade. I mean, we set up pre Google. Pre Amazon, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And so if it would have been, yeah. Um, so the web and digital was, was a wild rest, really.

Everyone was just kind of figuring it out as we went along. And so it's very like trial and error, um, and very design centric. Um, very few rules in those days, it really was kind of, let's experiment and see what happens. Um, some ways I miss those days because, you know, the creativity had a bit more space to breathe.

Whereas what comes with the evolution of the web and people's expectations [00:07:00] is within that experience space, the need for freedom. Familiarity. Uh, and therefore intuition comes to the form much more. People just want things to work in the same way. That makes sense. Yeah. Now, now if you're using your, your tv, it's really annoying that the apple fast forward isn't as good as Netflix is.

Why? Just there's as good copy that, you know. And so yeah, I don't want it to be an experimental fast forward with different types of like, um, button combinations. I just want it to be like that works. And so the challenge here is keeping that familiarity and making sure in our world that, you know, ultimately we want things to be better, faster and cheaper for our clients, which means things are easier, more intuitive and user friendly and, and just easy to click and say yes to for their clients.

Yeah.

Ian Finch: And so there's very prescribed, prescribable, perhaps is more accurate route to make things so much more [00:08:00] simple from a user's perspective. But that simple is a critical bit because it's very easy to be simplistic. It's actually quite difficult to be simple. It's actually very complicated to make things simple because you've got to do so much in the back end.

And so that's why we're in that space, uh, in the engineering because. It's all well and good, guys, we should be like this, my job is done, says a person that's done the diagram. Yeah, and then there's like two thousand man days or person days of development to actually configure all the systems to allow that very simple click to happen.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no fair place. So it's It's, you've, you've, I mean you do some great stuff now at Mandane, you've obviously started 25 years ago, so congratulations by the way, on your 25th year, that's quite impressive. Um, you started out by getting work wherever you could, uh, and it's fair to say now you've got some fairly well known and significant clients.

I don't know if you can mention who they are, I don't want to mention them. Yeah,

Ian Finch: [00:09:00] sure. So the clients, I mean, we're really proud of the client base, and so JCB, we're a great customer. Relative recent, so the last year or so, but we're getting on really well with them, doing some great stuff. Um, we keep British Red Cross.

Ticking over. Mm-Hmm. , uh, making sure they can get their donations and, and Mm-Hmm. performing. Um, really proud of work we do in utilities, you know? Mm-Hmm. And so when, when electricity in Northwest or SC or EU Mm-Hmm. And, um, a load of other three layer acronyms that it could come , but, you know, when storm season happens?

Yeah.

Ian Finch: People wanna know when they're gonna like, get electric back, you know, and, and they need to be on their mobile 'cause there's no. Web Connections, so making sites performance scalable, mobile friendly, easy to use, you know, we're very much in that space where we support vulnerable customers and that's really close to our heart in what we do.

So our work with CAP, for example, Christians Against Poverty, um, I mean that ticks a lot of boxes on a kind of heart level, but they, [00:10:00] we're helping them address a more sizable Market than they can currently address and work with them to transform their business without going into too much detail. But their target market is the most vulnerable in society.

And we're getting out of major poverty. But what's wonderful about CAP particularly is that they don't just fix the fact that you've stumbled into 2000 percent interest, horrible loan shark scenario. There might be other issues while you got there in the first place. And so it's this holistic view. And so when you can help an organization that We'll benefit society where we'll transform, you know, and that's probably an extreme example, but we work for the University Superannuation Scheme, the biggest pension fund in the country.

They've got 450, 000 pensioners who have paid their dues and are worried about a recession and so on. And we create a system where, where they can get [00:11:00] timely information. They can model what their pension is going to look like a year or two from now. And so yeah, really proud of work and really proud of the clients that we work with.

Matt Edmundson: That's awesome, man. But do you remember then, um, I mean, there's some pretty big clients. You didn't, obviously, didn't start off, uh, working with the British Red Cross, right? So I'm guessing that there was sort of step, what was, what was the turning point? Do you remember your sort of first major client where you thought, goodness me, we're, we're stepping out into a zone here?

Ian Finch: Yeah, there's probably two or three examples, there's more, but really big ones that come to mind. We're about just coming up to the end of our first year and we picked up like a one page website here and a bit of a brochureware there and I did a logo and so on and then we, we did our first competitive pitch for the Roy Castle Lung Cancer Foundation when it first opened and we bust a gut.

I remember doing three all nighters in a row before the 6am deadline when Cliff [00:12:00] Richard came in on Breakfast News and BBC and clicked go and Internet Explorer 3 and that popped the website on national television and we were

like, and it worked!

Ian Finch: You know, like matchsticks pricking up your eyes and the IT manager faints and we're like, okay, good.

Um, you know, but that, that was a step change deal because, you know, it's, it's, it's, You know, contextually, that was 20 percent of our revenue that year, and it all came in the end when we were, I hadn't been paid for three months. Yeah. I remember, you know, I don't know if anyone is old enough to relate to this, but, um, they gave all the assets on a zip disk, and we're like, oh wow, we haven't got a zip drive.

So we had to go and buy a zip drive to get the assets, you know, it was so hand to mouth. Um, but that was our first competitive pitch, it was also a big brand, so we PR'd the hell out of it. Every time there's a picture of Roy Cassano's trumpet, it's me and Matt, my business partner at the time, going,

Hey, we did the website.

Ian Finch: Um, the, um, because that was [00:13:00] visible, um, that actually got us noticed, not just by potential clients, but potential staff. And it was

a

Ian Finch: direct contact to seeing that, but we then, uh, came to contact with our correct director,

who,

Ian Finch: who then brought us the next few years. Um, around that time as well, we got, Mercy Television, and again, people need to be old for this, but remember Brookside?

Yeah, yeah. Before Holyokes. Um, well we did that in, in Macromedia Flash, if anyone remembers that. Oh, wow. We used plugin into browsers and got an interactive b nomination for it, and then we were set because on a new technology. There was Experiential with award winning that had national coverage, then the floodgates start to open.

But that then got us into contact with Sony, Psygnosis, who were a neighbor at the time, who, um, we did a very minor website, I think, Panzer Tank Elite, that well known game from, uh, 23 years ago, um, but because of that, [00:14:00] we got, we then, Go into that gaming world of all the product managers knew each other and we ended up doing Final Fantasy website and we did stuff for Capcom, Street Fighter, and we had a whole era where we did loads of media and games.

And so I think the key learning really is you, one unlock in a vertical where you just catch the imagination can transform. And we went from, I think we had, well, two staff by the time Roy Castle went live, we had three to two. Then by the time we had Brookside By the time we'd done a meeting games, we're 30 and the whole thing happened in kind of three years.

Then it all come bubble burst and we kind of just ticked over for a bit. I think the other step change came having. Just kept the lights on during a difficult time, kind of post the recession, just in digital. We developed our technology and we work in other [00:15:00] agencies and we were doing the back end and we kind of had this more balanced redesign and architecture.

And then the next step change deal occurred when we did an e learning system. And Three things happened. One, it's a tour de force in terms of visuals. It was complete state of the art. It was not form based learning. It was this immersive, almost gamification, edutainment, um, all those phrases that came out afterwards.

Crucially, though, we partnered with other technology. And, uh, the diagnostic engine that sat behind all the learning, we actually had another company produce. And we saw, ah, right, amazing experience design with best of breed technology. There's a win. Um, and actually in, in the agency space, we then quite soon after ditched our own technology and started working with bigger systems.

Okay. And with bigger systems. Came bigger [00:16:00] clients because the client didn't want Mando at the time, 30 odd people in Liverpool's CMS that had a hundred clients. They wanted to go to market and go, we want X or Y or Z platform. And then that 'cause that's safe and it's Microsoft backed and. Um, and so, but a client that wants that kind of safety with that kind of budget has budget for other things as well.

I mean, it took us away from some of the smaller work and we got into this kind of more business critical engineering space and, and it was that turning point of partnering with technology that then opened the floodgates to work with United Utilities, which we still do 14 years later. Um, Vodafone, Jones Lang LaSalle, Bentley and TalkTalk.

It's just all the brands came from a result of working that technology and it took us up a level. Um, and that core learning continues to this day. Day, you know, you have best of breed tech [00:17:00] with great visual design experience and uh, but then you need the systems. And so in our world, people who can do the tech and the systems are massive.

50,000 person offshores or systems integrators. Yeah. And they're. Design maybe is a bit lacking and the team's a bit disparate because we're all over the world. And the people that are integrating quite boutique don't typically have the processes to be able to cope with the support element. And so we think, well, there's a unique point of differentiation for us that within a certain mid market boundary, the fact that Onshore, we can keep systems running with bulletproof, ISO, ITIL driven processes, you know everyone who's working on your account, and it's going to be experientially and strategically driven, that, that kind of, um, Key principles all under one roof is really compelling because it makes it a better, faster, cheaper and you can really grow with a customer in a period of time.

The customers really appreciate [00:18:00] that.

Matt Edmundson: Now, and that's obviously what you guys have done very well over the last few years, right? And what you continue to do well in, but I'm, I mean, I know you Ian, so I know the answer to this question. Uh, but it's, um, I mean, that journey, as exciting as it sounds, it's fair to say, has not been all sunshine and rainbows, has it?

It's, there's, there's been a, there's been a few trips along the way, a few challenges. Um, so we call this podcast Push To Be More, right? So the question to you then is, where, So, have you learnt, or where have you had to push and that's had a big massive impact on you, sort of challenges you've had to overcome?

Ian Finch: Yeah, well two I think, two or three come to mind. Firstly, I mentioned it before, when the dot com bubble burst.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Ian Finch: Um, um, yeah. It was followed quickly by 9 11 and, uh, five months earlier, we'd raised half a million and moved into 9, 000 square foot of office space because we're utterly convinced we're going to be 100 staff within a year, uh, [00:19:00] which then didn't happen.

Wow. So it's like, you know, I think pivot is a fully overused word in 2022, but man the pivot. Right. Okay. Bye. In Clerkenwell alone in London, 5, 000 people got made redundant, and they all went, Oh, what's the most interesting stuff? Media and Games. What are we doing? Media and Games, 200 miles away in Liverpool.

Um, we are staring into an empty office, it was never going to be filled, and we're like, Okay, now what are we going to do? So, um, you know, that's when we, we really doubled down on the technical partner side of things to, to ad agencies, and the, and the spend went from digital to ad agency, Because it was tried and trusted from a strategic perspective, but they didn't know how to do the tech.

And so we're like, well, let's concentrate on that. And you know, just instead of a shit, we need some new markets, because media and games isn't going to do it. Sublet the space, you know, all those kind of things. [00:20:00] You know, which we did, which we did. And then, but we're not as close to the customers. And then the customers, which we had, You know, with the greatest respect, if I did one 20 page accountant website, I did 50.

And white with a blue logo with a differentiation point of personal, professional service and excellence is our value. Yeah.

And you!

Ian Finch: Matt Doesn't that excite you. Dan And, you know, we turn the lights on, and I remember going on holiday and coming back and saying to the business partner, I'm so bored. I'm so bored!

Working, and I think our staff are. Because working on projects we don't like, money we can't afford to live on, um, for people we don't particularly get on with, and work we don't believe in, this is, this is You know what, I'm still in my 20s, this is, this is too, no. You know, a business partner felt, yeah, I feel the same way actually, we're stuck in a rut.[00:21:00]

And, um, so we had this real kind of moment like, right, okay. It was three or four years ago. Shake it off, man. Let's just get that spirit back. What is it we love? It was a design, and it was a problem solving, and let's get in charge of it again. Let's, um, you know, really go for what we want or forget it. Go big or go home, you might call it.

And, um, by getting that kind of gritty about it, people who were with you were loving it. Yeah. People that had died inside themselves were like, nah, I'm done, you know, and actually, and we shrunk by a third in the next six months. Um, but we did only kind of lose one person practically, the rest kind of moved on.

It was just a sheer shake of us getting a grip of the business again. Yeah. And the last person to move was, was the salesperson, which is an interesting choice when you're thinking to [00:22:00] get rid of sales, but actually we needed to change the strategy. And so I actually took over sales and, and the key principle was get the people with a problem.

In front of the people who have an ability to solve problems or the people that need to work with the people who do the work. And so I was going to treat sales more like project management and facilitation rather than in inverted commas peddling anything. And, and that worked a treat that really, really worked.

And it kind of changed the way we looked at business development. as we solve problems. We're consultants. We don't sell, we don't business develop, and then these guys build. We're consultants. And I still say that now, and we're still doing training on it now because it's one of those kind of never ending journeys of just becoming more and more consultative, but that, that was a real [00:23:00] change that happened then.

The next one I mentioned before, where we started partnering with technology, uh, and then coming back. Autumn or the present day, there's probably two key things that have happened. One is we went quite vertical in terms of our market proposition, particularly around regulated industries. And we do really well, um, when we're serving a known customer base, making it optimal for that customer base and reducing the cost to serve those customers, which is.

Very much for the ICT consultancy cost reduction kind of side of what we do ultimately, or, you know, we have much more stringent metrics than this, but ultimately if you came down to it, we increase customer satisfaction, we reduce the cost to serve those customers. That's uniform across the customer base is the most baseline metrics and being really clear about a proposition helps your qualification, it helps your bids, it gets you the homogeneity.

Within your types of [00:24:00] customers you work with, it allows you to build intellectual property, uh, uh, and just build that competence. Um, and then, and then probably the last real pertinent thing is, um, we will still have a kind of good quarter, not so good quarter, or a great year, and an okay year, and getting off that, I wouldn't call it a roller coaster, maybe a sine wave, um, uh, and going how, how can we get that consistent growth, and That's very difficult in our space.

And I think generally in consultancy space, um, because when you're project orientated, yeah, because you put this big picture together, you win the project and you do the project. And then everyone has a feeling and then it can last a few months, no matter what. So you always get this drop and yeah, you can put a support agreement in place, but really changing our marketing and.

Uh, and our, our [00:25:00] value proposition, our internal training as well, it's quite a seismic overhaul of the agency to become much more aligned to customers that want to go on a journey and continuously improve and continually invest in their platform, their digital estate and become ever more digital first.

That's when you can really build momentum, really get under the skin of organization and be able to project further out what your revenue forecasts are, you know, this year for the first time in 25. I know what we're gonna do by March year end of

Yeah.

Ian Finch: I know 60% of what we're gonna do by the following March and that, that's a paradigm shift for us in terms of history.

Matt Edmundson: Right. So it's fair. I mean, there's a lot there, right? I mean there's , there's a lot of learning, uh, and a lot of challenges that you've faced and that you've worked through. Some of them you've mentioned, and now you're sort of faced with. with a sort of this paradigm shift. Um, originally we were going to call this podcast when we get retainers or die trying or something like that.

[00:26:00] Yeah. Um, we've subsequently changed the title. So is that, um, is that sort of, it's almost like you're, you're sort of You've stripped the business back to these fundamental basics of when you were up in the, in that sort of little office on London Road, right?

Ian Finch: Yeah, so, yeah, we've evolved considerably and, you know, in terms of that particular initiative, yeah.

You know, you have to, you have to have listened to a 50 Cent album to even get the reference in fairness. Like, Get Rich or Die Trying, but Get Rich or Die Trying, the um, so it didn't translate that well. I remember people looking at a IT guy going, it's okay, we'll think of a different name. But you get my drift.

You know, we are going to do this, come hell or high water, we're not going to play around with it. And one of the things that I have learned slowly. [00:27:00] Slowly, too slowly, is, sometimes, um, change is so, Big and so fundamental, you know, not, not everyone's going to come with you and that has to be okay. Uh, and if you do it right, it can be a really empowering experience.

You know, I once had an exit interview with someone that went, I really, really see clearly where you're going. I don't want any of it. So it's time to leave. I'm like, that's the best exit interview ever. Cause it means I've been really clear, it means you've been really intentional. And we can just shake each other's hand and wish each other well, you know, so I was really proud of that because like, we've communicated this really well.

This has not just been a slow deterioration, you know, we're going, we're going here for these reasons. And here's what was going to happen. This is what it means to everyone. And people go, brilliant. People go, not for me. You know, I think that's great.

Matt Edmundson: You know, and it's remarkable. Really?

Ian Finch: Yeah. Yeah. And it hasn't always been like that.[00:28:00]

So, you know, so what's one of the learning points there is that you just cannot over communicate stuff. You know, so often you think, I've emailed about it, I've done a company stand up, I've sent, I've put a blog out on the company intranet, I've talked to all the key people, and then someone goes, are we doing that now?

And you're just like, what? You know, well I could just I could just, just let my shoulders slump and just cry over my cup of tea, and no one understands me. Or I could go, this is the job. You know, I may feel like I've done a song and dance and an email and an expressive mime about it and a video and, and, and talk to everybody individually at the water cooler about how, and they still don't get it.

And actually it happens so often and [00:29:00] happens so repeatedly over history. And we work with customers who are brilliant and the left arm doesn't know what the right arm is doing. You go, this is like a human issue. So I could probably give myself a break. I could probably be a bit more gracious to everyone else and go, we just go again.

Yeah.

Ian Finch: We just go again, you know, and in terms of, I think, Where you are coming from in this, in this podcast series is I don't think there's any greater real headline than we go again.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. ,

Ian Finch: we get No, it's

Matt Edmundson: true. Right? We get it. We just ourselves down and we, we we keep going, right? Yeah.

Ian Finch: And because some stuff's worked really well, some stuff's worked a bit and could be optimized.

Some stuff's just a nightmare. Which case you go. If you've got the lightbulb wrong a thousand times before you got it right and he didn't stop. The, uh, the, [00:30:00] so the stuff you can own around, Strategy. And we tried so many didn't work and that's okay. You know, learning now is fail forward and fail fast.

Matt Edmundson: Just

Ian Finch: don't keep failing.

You know, doing it once and it works fine. Tweak it, do it twice and didn't work. Do it three times. It's like, are you kidding me? We just, we just have to learn this now and tweak. And it doesn't always need to be a wholesale change. It needs to be a tweak and even that needs explaining because I think the vast majority of humans live in an either or world.

We do this, we do that. All we do that, but in business transformation and change in digital specifically, we do this and we do that. So let's live in an and world, not in an either or world. And everything's just a micro adjustment. You know, it's hilarious when people want to flick to an agile delivery methodology, um, rather than an old school waterfall methodology.

And you go, well, let's do Agile. Let's speck it to [00:31:00] death before we start, because we want to get Agile right, you

know?

Ian Finch: No! No! Missed the point. Missed the point. Let's start, iterate as we go along, and have a cadence where we go, whatever it is. Every two weeks, right, here's where we are, what have we learned, what are we going to do next?

Alright, here's where we are, and, you know, and, and, but that takes time and training, because I think, Yeah. From the schooling system. Up where you just get it right, have some incompetence, do the thing, get marked for it, okay, now go on to the next assessment, but in the real world you go, try and fail, try and fail, try and fail, the creative process.

is endlessly trying and failing. You write a song, it's like that chorus doesn't work, that chorus doesn't work, that chorus works, but you don't stop trying, and it's not like you've done a completely different song. Even if it ends up differently, you've iterated your way there. And so it is with life.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it's interesting you say that, because I think one of the things that, um, you do well [00:32:00] when you're a kid is you fail well. Just think about a kid learning to walk. They fail well. Well, they don't even think about it. There's no, there's no ego involved. There's no, you know, there's no self esteem issues when they fall over.

There might be a slight frustration, but they figure it out. And I think one thing that school does is it teaches you to fail badly. And we, we carry that through, right? And one of the things that I've noticed with entrepreneurs like yourself is your ability to take failure almost within your stride and not worry about it and just, and just relentlessly keep going, which I think.

Um, it's peculiar in a lot of ways to entrepreneurs and leaders.

Ian Finch: I think you're right. I think you're absolutely right. And it's, we did some, some training about 20 months ago. We got some sales training in and then COVID hit and we turned the sales training into comms training more generally. How to use a screen, [00:33:00] you know, you know, how to set an agenda, but finish your assignments before the hour.

Cause if no doubt got another video call, it starts at the hour and really, really basic stuff like that. But then when you actually get into the concept of agenda setting and you get a bit further into it, you go, well, I can set an agenda, but the word agenda that plays out in multiple different ways.

And actually people are coming to that agenda with an agenda and their agenda could be driven by. An argument at breakfast with their spouse or some other trigger. Um, but maybe agendas with a harsh word, but it, it led to us going, people don't contribute in these meetings because they're scared to look bad.

Why are they scared to look bad? Because it's part of failure. People are scared to fail. Well, why are they scared to fail? I don't think we've got a culture. I think we embrace failure. You can say it, but if people don't feel it, I'm like, oh, okay, well, let's do a session on handling failure. Yeah. And it's really interesting what you say about [00:34:00] the entrepreneur thing, because.

I was on that session like the rest of people in the business. I was like, with the greatest respect, yeah, I know. Yeah, I know. Well, of course, yeah, I know. And, and there's I've got 50 people going, oh, it's life changing, oh, I filmed so well, and yeah, and I'm like, oh, oh, okay, right, I've got some learning to do here because I live in this permanent place of failure, iterate, failure, iterate, success, iterate a bit more, now it's a failure.

And everything I do is public. Every failure I make, 50 people go, yeah, you failed on that.

Well done, boss. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ian Finch: You know, because entrepreneurs fail in public, because, you know, particularly when you've got staff, you don't end up doing the work. Other people are doing the decisions you make about a direction in business, other people are doing it, but it's still you that's failed to deliver to that client.

Um, or, or the culture's not working, we get staff feedback and it's like, [00:35:00] Oh, you think that? Oh, you won't be needing this anymore. And, um, but you can't take, you just have to go, all feedback is valuable. All feedback is meant well, unless it's not, which is, let's put a bit of a sermon in, but your assumption is it's meant well for the, may I ask for it and I get it back, I can't.

You have to see failure. You have to see a challenge and, and, and your failings. And when you run a business, where you see all the bits you hate about your character played out culturally, as well as the good bits as well, you know, and there's no hiding,

Matt Edmundson: right? There's no

Ian Finch: hiding. And it's most exhilarating and terrifying experience, probably outside of your kids up where the same thing happens.

Um, the, uh, you just live in this world of constantly failing publicly and accepting responsibility for it. And then you forget. That most people don't, most people learn at [00:36:00] school how to be great at generic stuff, GCSEs, then focus a little bit more at A levels, then focus a bit more at university, then do a job that matches their university training and then get really good at the job.

So we live in a place where actually failure is getting eliminated all the time. And then the nutty founder entrepreneur comes along and goes, Hey,

let's experiment. Let's try something.

Ian Finch: You know, and, um, yeah, not strictly true because, yeah, I'm not like, let's have experimental code practices that maybe aren't as secure as others know.

You know, let's, let's learn the basics, but can we optimize that? Do we need to build ourselves? Could we be part of the technology? And you're constantly nibbling around the edges to try and, um, and it's your job to go, can we do that quicker? Yeah. Really? Really? Is that actually true? Yeah, I've found it, you know, like the classic thing, I've just searched on Google for 30 seconds and I found this and you've done it for 30 years, but what about this?

Now I hate you, but then occasionally you're like, Oh yeah, you're right, I didn't [00:37:00] see that. And you're like, you didn't see it because you're utterly brilliant at what you do. And actually I saw it because I'm completely ignorant of what you do and therefore I'm not as closed minded. And so I've learned to be older, I get the more stupid questions I ask.

Yeah,

Ian Finch: that's true. The more, forgive me. And they're intentional.

Yeah.

Ian Finch: Because the better you get without people stretching you, the closer the blinkers are because you're going deeper. And I think part of the joy and part of the job, but also the part you've really got to handle culturally, it's constantly going, is there something else?

Is it something else? Is it something else? Have we thought about, have we thought about, without winding everyone else up and dismissing what their value is. And, and so we constantly trying to get that tension between best practice and is there more?

Matt Edmundson: Wow. There's a lot there. Right. And [00:38:00] I, I couldn't agree more.

I think it's, it's a really sort of fascinating Uh, traits that business leaders have this constant drive and have you ever read the book, um, black box thinking? I have not. So this is a book I think everybody should read is a black box thinking by a guy called Matthew. I can't remember his name. Matthew Syed.

I think it is. And he, in the book, he talks about how to deal with failure and he contrasts the U S medical industry, which cannot abide the word failure because it means lawsuit with the airline industry, which goes.

Business aside, because business sounds like fun and full on and I'm Matt Edmundson. I'll see you next time. A pain in the arse all at the same time, which is probably the testimony of most business leaders, [00:39:00] right?

Ian Finch: All of the above, yeah, but I think particularly in digital, it's, you know, it's 25, well no, it's not, is it?

It's 30 to 35 years old since a non linear hyperlink got created, um, which compared to architecture, which is several thousands year old, there's, there's a few more standards, uh, you know, and, and so while that makes it challenging, it also means it's not. Every day is different and it's exciting, you know, and we can evolve further, but the human issues don't, don't change.

Um, but yeah, it's a challenge, which I'm sure my next question will be, how do you handle that in the rest of life as well? Well, yeah,

Matt Edmundson: we could, we could go that route. Yeah. What do you do to sort of change that? What stay on top? What do you do to charge your batteries? What do you do to be, um, the Push To Be More?

It's that kind of what fills your tank kind of thing. I'm curious to know how you, how you recharge Finch?

Ian Finch: Yeah, um, that's been a very topical part of my life over the last, [00:40:00] um, couple of years, uh, because I think the older you get, um, maybe it's me, I think it's more generic though, you know, the, uh, Things just start hurting in your 40s.

I think particularly if you've worked in IT, like this, you know, getting more and more stress, and you know, cramming over a desk, and your hamstrings are getting tight, and um, I think you end up carrying. stuff and adrenaline and energy, maybe in my case, nervous energy in your twenties and thirties carries you through.

Um, and I remember getting a bit of advice years ago going, well, that's all well and good, but once you're doing 25 hours work in every 24 hour period, where's that go? Yeah. You know, you can't just keep doing more. And I think there's periods in life, I think particularly in twenties where you're just accumulating knowledge and actually you're not as good.[00:41:00]

Because you haven't done it before and so things take longer. And then, you know, your 30s, you start getting a better sense of where you are. And then in your 40s, you realize actually less

is way more.

Ian Finch: And I've actually allowed myself to see part of my job is thinking clearly. And ridiculously, with a benefit of hindsight, for years, I thought that, well, the job is doing.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Ian Finch: And you know, I'm thinking, frankly, while driving and getting dictaphone notes, reading on the toilet, dictaphone on the toilet, because that's where the ideas come, thinking on holidays, and actually, I've allowed myself to spend some of my working day thinking. , uh, part of that is 'cause I trust myself more.

My thinking's good. Mm. There's incompetence, uh, part of it's a natural part of, you know, I, I don't [00:42:00] do the work anymore. I, I delegate, manage, lead, and direct. Um, so I think creating space to thinking's Im important and, um, it, it needs to be a bit more holistic. And that, you know, and so some of the work I did kind of really condensed life down into, into what we call four rooms.

And so there's the emotional room, the physical room, the, um, uh, the mental room and the spiritual room and actually really dwelling on where am I at in those four paradigms was really interesting. So mentally. I'm continually challenged. I'm always firing and actually I'm always learning something new.

So I'm probably in a pretty good place mentally. I make good decisions and my job is making decisions and well practiced. Physically, I was a bit binge and purge, you know, my weight can shift. So I think it's very easy to shift weight by a couple of stone, very easily, based on biscuits and walking.

Matt Edmundson: [00:43:00] So just to say if you're listening outside of the UK, a stone is a lot!

It's like what pounds? What is it? Is it like

Ian Finch: kilograms? Yeah, something like that, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, my weight can shift by 15 kilograms quite easily in a matter of months and so why is that? Um, my emotional room, I realised, and I think this perhaps comes from a lot of stuff we talked about.

Professionally, it's always been about what's next? How can we improve? What's next? How can we improve? Oh, that was disappointing. Shake off disappointment. How can we improve? How can we improve? And that has an effect maybe on this chicken egg. Have I been trained professionally because I've always had to lead people for 25 years?

Am I that way inclined anyway? Yeah, bit anxiously driven?

Matt Edmundson: Who knows?

Ian Finch: Bit both probably. But what happens emotionally is for me, uh, That room is only happy. There's, there's yellow balls with smiley faces on everywhere in that room and there's no sadness there. [00:44:00] And that's not healthy. Yeah, because basically I realized I suppressed anything negative, any disappointment, and just concentrating on what's next and Yeah Which then leads to a spiritual room where that was described as what's your relationship to yourself?

I'm like, I don't.

Yeah,

Ian Finch: and so in the last 18 months particularly I've really gone I need to check in more actually and you know, allow myself to be sad, allow myself to be disappointed and yeah allow myself to acknowledge for other people their actions of I've allowed to hurt me and we need to talk about it.

You know, you didn't do this, but I'm going to own it all. We need to talk about it. Um, but it all starts with, with checking in. And then again, you need space to do that. And so for me, uh, the way I do that is get in nature. So I go for a walk each day. Sometimes I listen to a podcast or read it or listen to a book.[00:45:00]

I'm a much better listener to books. I am reading them. Yeah. Um, trying to yoga four or five times a week and do some kind of physical activity. I love, yeah, hiking, try and try and do something. mentally, physically, uh, and checking emotionally and spiritually on a daily basis. And it's funny, you know, since doing that, I sleep more, I work less, and I'm adding more value and I'm more productive on a daily basis, which man, if I could have really grasped that.

It's dark, could you imagine, could you imagine meeting yourself 20 years ahead of time and going, no seriously, do this, and if you were not so black and white and so ego driven in your 20s that you'd actually listen to start with, you know. I

Matt Edmundson: was going to say, you'd meet your 20s seeing, if I met my 20 year old self, my 20 year old self would not listen to my 40 year old self, yeah, they'd just be like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Get behind me, Satan, [00:46:00] what's wrong with you? Do you know what I mean? It'd be that kind of response. You old, tired man, is this what

you've become? You've just talked about home furnishings. Why have you talked about home furnishings? You, you garden? What?

Matt Edmundson: So do you feel, right, with this sort of, um, new approach where you're creating space, you're creating space to think and to be and to check in.

Do you feel a sense of guilt because you're not doing,

Ian Finch: so how do you deal with

Matt Edmundson: that?

Ian Finch: Um, so guilt needs to be investigated because, you know, where is it coming from? What, what is making me have to be the first in and the last to leave? What, what is making, because some of it's personal responsibility and trying to lead from the front and do the right thing, but I think I've [00:47:00] realised there's other stuff.

Driving it, um, you know, uh, for me, I was like, I just pathologically have to fix everything and everyone

and

Ian Finch: take personal responsibility for everything. Taking a step back and talk to a few people, that's not normal. So where does that come from? Cause actually this kind of nervous energy, this guilt, it's, it's just always there.

It's like, I've got this thing I just need to do better and strive. And why do I have to fix everything and everyone? Why can't I like, cause actually what that does in business or life generally is it creates learned helplessness. Because people don't have to answer their own problems or self regulate because Fincher's doing it for them the whole time.

It's not helpful. Why? You know, and so you go really deep and you go, all right, there's maybe a few childhood experiences that, that meant this is how I felt loved. This is what, [00:48:00] this is what behavior was rewarded or what, what felt like it worked. And, um, you know, and I talked about suppression earlier and you know, like you, Actually, you know, most things get, get nailed quite early on, you realize, even with brilliant parents and a great home life and everything else, it's just certain things between your personality and your environment.

And so I think being aware and being intentional is huge. And then when you are aware, uh, uh, going, Okay, why does this feel more urgent to me than anyone else? Oh, because we have no money to pay the wages next week. Okay, fine. That's a normal level of urgency. But actually, no, there's something driving this and actually The big shift to me was I was always going to feel guilty working less unless I shifted to a value based mindset rather than a [00:49:00] pounds per square inch of effort per second mindset, you know, and actually really tracking The value I bring to a conversation by planning it for 10 more minutes rather than winging it because I've been doing something else for 10 minutes and, and experimenting, really testing, iterating, failing forward to going, what if I didn't have to work harder, longer and more intensely than anyone else?

What if I could trust myself that the value I bring is actually better now than it was then? And actually, particularly with a comms lens. I mean, that was the next phase really is like, I know the value is good, but I'm not landing this. And so actually I need to take more time to land it. So being a bit more considered and just losing some of that kind of entrepreneurial energy, you know, what got you here won't get you there.

You do have to operate and iterate. And [00:50:00] I think that that tipping point of being less driven, maybe less guilt driven, is that Where my sense of delivered value, or even perhaps value of myself, comes from effort and wanting to, to insight and direction and setting other people up for success. And you know, and there's other things like it doesn't half help when you pay people better and there's bonuses and everything else.

Some of that goes away, but it was practical things as well. But I think it, it's much more on a Personal level of giving yourself a break and trusting and then and seeing the value you're giving and that's, that's been massive.

Matt Edmundson: That sounds like quite a journey. I mean, you know, heck of a journey, uh, that you've, that you've, uh, been on there.

And so thinking forward a little bit, if I think about the more section, you know, Push To Be More, it's like, so you've, you've sort of, you've, you've, you've grown, you're 25 years, you've had all these challenges, you've learned. Over the last 18 months, [00:51:00] maybe to create space to think and how to deal with the guilt and how to give people, you know, the space to shine and you bring your value.

So what does that mean for the future? What are you hoping to see more of grow into, uh, over the next few years?

Ian Finch: Yeah, so we're on a journey, um, which this, this whole year, 2022 was about some stuff we changed about our commercial model to be, um, add more value to customers, also protect ourselves a bit more and get, get more of an even keel over our revenue and our year on year growth.

Um, this whole year has been about proving it out and so far it's been very successful. You know, revenues up, profits up, best year so far. So good. Good. Yeah. We want to test that it's not just another good year followed by a fallow year. And the ultimate test will be doing that going into a recession. So probably next year is going to be more of the same.

Um, uh, in terms of, you know, our internal phrases, prove it, prove [00:52:00] it again. Whether it needs to be proved for a full year or whether, you know, first quarter in, next financial year, we've got the whole year now, in which case, okay, it's worked. But then the idea is that once we've proved the commercial model, we'll scale the commercial model and our specialisms as is.

Just try and, you know, throw some, throw some time, resource, energy, some money, and a bit more ambition, a bit more drive to kind of grow the top line once we're certain that the bottom line is going to remain like a consistent margin. Yeah. Um, once we've scaled it, so I scaled it, um, yeah, scaled it. which we expect to be organic, even if there's some investment to do that.

Um, then the journey after that would be to scale us, because I think once we've really kind of proved that what we do is vital, it works, people love it, we're serving them well, we scale the business, then the next phase would be scale us. And that would be where we, uh, would look to acquire [00:53:00] some new competencies to do a broader, more complementary.

So, and there'll be, there'll be decisions to make, you know, right now we're, we're growing organically a data and insight, uh, team, um, when we scale it, it might be quicker to just buy a data insight team, bring them in, um, and that, that would kind of lend itself to for scale us world, um, or it could be that there's a mix and match with the data insight grows and the US grows, but actually we've got this huge commerce opportunity.

Um, while we, we nod to that and we do my accounts and e business, pure play B2C commerce is not necessarily part of our remit currently, but is part of our tech and is part, increasingly part of our digital estates for our clients. And so let's buy a commerce outfit and then we'll get their clients, we'll get their [00:54:00] competency and then instead of having to grow organically over a couple of years, we can jump forward.

It's, it's like. Yeah. First 100 days integration job, rather than a two year, so yeah, prove it, scale it, scale us. Um, that, that's, and to do that in terms of coming back to the core of this, this chat is, I need space. To, to flip from. I mean, I, we introduced me as CEO I'm still doing quite a bit of md really.

Mm-Hmm. But that be, that that real shift to pure strategic level is happening. Mm-Hmm. But I'm, I'm still in the weeds and bits, but we get to a place where we're, we're growing at scale and I'm, I'm growing a team, but can cope with scale like a growth officer and so on. And particularly when it comes to an acquisition journey, which might involve partners and nels.

I need to focus on that. So, and that needs space and time and, you know, meeting quite a lot of people. And so it's actually quite business critical, but I do keep [00:55:00] creating that space. Um, and so I'm feeling really confident in a minute, but all the hallmarks are there that we get the system right and setting people up for success, that that will continue.

Matt Edmundson: Fantastic. Fantastic. That sounds great, doesn't it? And it's one of those things where, um, You know, when your business works really well, when you're not involved in the detail, that, that's a really good thing. But it's also, if you're, if you're marginally insecure, it's going to be a really, really painful thing to deal with.

And so, um, that's really cool, man. And, uh, I hope that sort of all pays off. So let me ask you, uh, one of my final questions, right? As you know, this show is sponsored by Aurion Media, which specializes in helping folks like yourself set up and run their own podcast. So I want you to do an imaginary exercise for me.

You've got your own podcast, uh, fincheschats. com, uh, and out of, out of the people who have been The right Reverend Fincheschats. Yeah, the right Reverend Fincheschats. Out of the people who have impacted your life, right, [00:56:00] uh, whether it's family, friends, authors, uh, Moviestar, I don't know. Who are your sort of top guests that you would like, I really want to get you on the show and say thank you, who would they be and why?

Ian Finch: Oh, oh wow, okay, um,

so Steve Bartlett might have already done all of this, bless him, but uh, you know, in terms of, I think in, in, in, over the recent 18 months, I'd love to, Talked to Eckhart Tolle, who is the author of The Power of Now, and he's very much about being in the present moment, and when you're in the present moment, you have to be incredibly aware to be that, because most of us flick from the past to the future, and when you're in the present moment, that's when you can really engage with someone else, see their true self, be completely aware of Anything [00:57:00] that's going on in you.

Mm-Hmm. Um, but his story is fascinating in that, you know, fairly dysfunctional growing up period. And then he ended up in a place that was quite suicidal and he had a moment ago, I, I don't think it needs to be like this, , uh, and actually took himself off a grid and I think went and studied in. Buddhist monasteries and so on, but you know, I don't mean he's a Buddhist.

He's just, for me, he's a father of mindfulness. And, uh, but that journey and understanding his experience and his unlocks with people, I'd be quite fascinated by that. And I'm, you know, and I'm particularly interested, but that has nothing to do with technology because that's actually My thing in the, and I think I said this in the last time we met, is that for this is the first time in human history where technology is a lot of limitation people are.

Technology can do anything you want it to do within reason now. But changing people [00:58:00] is constantly the process of digging and digging and digging. What's driving that, you know, and I've hopefully been quite honest about that. Being aware of myself, but you're constantly, what's the agenda? What's the agenda?

What's really making you ask that question? What, um, you know, I have a values violation when it's really clear when a client. Or potential client, should I say, uh, wants to look good rather than be good. Yeah. Um, you know, and I have like a massive reaction to that, but then part of that is like, why am I judging them like that?

You know, they might be in a political context. We can't afford to think of anything but looking good because that's, you know, and they're fighting their own battles and actually, maybe I could bring some more grace into this situation. What can I learn from this? And

technology, business leaders, no one in my recent experiences is quite unlocked that nature of awareness and [00:59:00] being totally aware of what's going on and when someone's being conscious or not and how you're responding to it. Pinnacle, totally. It would just be fascinating to talk to him.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, well, when he comes on as a guest to your podcast, uh, I will definitely listen to the episode.

Absolutely. Mate, you've been an absolute legend. If people want to reach out to you, if people want to get a hold of you, um, we took, we said earlier, didn't we? That Mando, um, engineers positive change. So if people need help with IT systems, if you're an agency who wants to do some kind of strategic partnership with you guys, I know you do that, um, on the IT side, Yeah,

Ian Finch: no, partnership's really, really key.

Yeah, we often work with, uh, typically with people who are maybe in a consultancy space or that front end brand space, but they need a technology partner that gets it, that can work hand in glove with them, who's on shore. That, you know, we can work in partnership. And so yeah, that that's a massive outcome as well as people that are going for digital change and [01:00:00] need some support, not just on the technical side, but kind of translating that to allowing marketing and IT to play nicely together.

Matt Edmundson: Sounds ideal. Sounds lush. Uh, how do people reach you then if they, if they want to engage with such activities?

Ian Finch: So, you can contact me via our website, mando. agency, or indeed email me, ian. finch at mando. agency. Very good. Are you on LinkedIn? I am. Uh, and, uh, I can't actually remember mine. I think it's iandavidfinch on LinkedIn, because I think, how dare it, but Ian Finch has already gone.

Um, so LinkedIn, but you can search Ian Finch, Mando on LinkedIn and I'll answer those twice a day as well.

Matt Edmundson: Oh, do you? Uh, I'm still trying to get into that daily habit of doing LinkedIn. Uh, I'm not very good, uh, . It's just one of those things. So we will obviously, uh, link to Ian, uh, to Mando and to his linked in the show notes.

So, oh, sorry, Matt.

Ian Finch: There's one other thing actually. Yeah, I, [01:01:00] I, I do a lot more of my kind of mindfulness and kind of outdoor pursuits kind of stuff on Instagram as well, so people can find me in French on Instagram too.

Matt Edmundson: But you do some reels as well, right? Yeah, well I was inspired by you.

Ian Finch: I was like, yeah, I haven't quite got the kind of like the, uh, the statements and the little insight bits, but they're coming, but yeah, I like, I'm liking putting together.

Matt Edmundson: And I'm very envious when you get up in the hills, I keep meaning to call you and say next time you go, give me a call you bugger. Oh I will, I'll give you a shout out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, let me know, let me know. Well thanks for coming on, but honestly, I love doing podcasts with you, you're an absolute legend, always enjoy the conversation, so thank you very, very, very much.

Be sure to follow Push To Be More Podcast wherever you get your podcasts from because this is just the beginning.

And what a beginning it was. Fantastic conversation to launch the show. We've got lots of conversations lined up with some incredible people and I definitely don't want you to miss any of them. And in case no one has told you yet today, let me do it now. [01:02:00] You are awesome. Absolutely. It's just a burden we all have to bear.

Finch has to bear it, I have to bear it, you've got to bear it too.

Our theme music is by Josh Edmundson. And as I mentioned, if you'd like to read the transcript and show notes, head over to Push To Be More, where you can also sign up for our newsletter. So, that's it from me, that's it from Ian. Thank you so much for joining us. Have a fantastic week, wherever you are. I'll see you next time.

Bye for now.