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The Art of Levelling Up | Dave Perry

Today’s Guest Dave Perry

David Perry is an innovative leader in the gaming industry whose technology has shaped how we see gaming today and in the future. His work with Gaikai led to Sony PlayStation acquiring his company to establish itself in streaming video games from the cloud - PlayStation Now.

David now finds himself as the CEO of Carro, a partnership e-commerce network designed for Shopify brands. By teaming up with other companies in the same space, over 30,000 brands using Carro are able to improve brand recognition, sales volume and acquire new customers.

David moved to England in the early 1990s. He got involved with the game, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which was a huge success and led to Playmates Toys funding his own video game company, Shiny Entertainment. From there, he went on to have an incredibly successful career in video games, e-commerce businesses, and more - all thanks to taking advantage of opportunities as they arose.

David discusses the idea of levelling up. In a video game, every little thing you do progresses you towards the next level. This keeps people playing. In life too, sometimes people get stuck and don't move forward If they don't know what the next stage is, or can't see themselves getting closer to a goal.

According to David, titles are not important in a company. He talks about how to use the idea of levelling up in leadership by finding 10Xers (talented people who just work it out) and hiring those who think outside the box.

David talks about the importance of continuous growth and learning new things, even if they don't seem immediately relevant. He recounts a story of how he got free servers for his startup by cold-calling companies from Wikipedia and how such attitude gets things done.

Learning something about everything and everything about something is a philosophy David consciously adopted which has led him to some amazing opportunities in his life.

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Matt Edmundson: Welcome to Push To Be More with me, your host, Matt Edmundson. This is a show that talks about the stuff that makes life work and to help us do just that. I am chatting with today's very special guest, Mr. David Perry. Yes, uh, about making it in the gaming industry before selling to Sony and why you should learn something about everything and everything about something.

The show notes and transcript from our conversation are available on our website And whilst you're on there, you can also sign up for our newsletter. And each week we will email you the notes and the links automagically from uh, conversations direct to your inbox. Totally. For free. Totally amazing. So make sure you sign up for that.

Now, this episode is brought to you by Aurion Media, which helps entrepreneurs and business leaders set up and run their own successful podcast. You know what I have found that running my own podcast, uh, really rewarding and it opens doors to amazing people like nothing else I've ever.

Hence the reason we have Mr. Perry on the phone, on the phone, , uh, whatever the equivalent of the phone is these days. Uh, I have built networks, made friends, had a platform to champion my customers, my team, my suppliers, and I think just about any entrepreneur or business leader should have a podcast because it has had a huge impact on my own business and networking.

Of course, that sounds great in theory, but in reality there is a whole problem of setting up distribution, getting the tech right, knowing what the right podcast strategy is, you know what I mean? The list goes on and so you see, I love talking to people, but not all that other stuff. No. So, Aurion media takes it all off my plate. I do what I'm good at, and they brilliantly take care of the rest. So if you are wondering if podcasting is a good marketing strategy for your business, do connect with them at We will of course, link to them on our podcast website too.

Uh, which one more time is push to be more. Now joining me with my very hoarse voice today, uh, is Mr. David Perry. He is an innovative leader in the gaming industry whose technology has shaped how we see gaming today and in the future. His work with Gaikai led to Sony PlayStation acquiring his company to establish itself, uh, in the streaming video games, uh, in the cloud.

Anyone heard of PlayStation now? So David now finds himself as the CEO of, uh, which is a partnership e-commerce network designed for Shopify brands. So by teaming up with other companies in the same space, over 30,000 brands, using are able to improve brand recognition, sales volume, and acquire new customers, the magical trio.

Uh, so I'm pretty eager to chat, uh, with David about his thoughts on leadership, how he deals with challenges and what he does in his downtime. And I'm really keen to see where he sees the future going. So David, thank you for being here on the Push To Be More podcast. Great to chat with you sir.

David Perry: Awesome. Thank you for inviting me. And you know what, I just so you know, I got myself a podcasting microphone in one of those rodecaster things. Okay. Contact Aurion Media, I think, and get myself a podcast.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Absolutely funny. I wish I could show you, cuz I have one of those rodecaster days. Have you, did you get the second one or the first one?

David Perry: Uh, it's, I think this is the first one. Um, yeah, I think there's a new one just came out. Um, it's the Rodecaster Pro. Yeah. Which has got, you can add all these cool sound effects. You just hit a button and you can have applause and all that kinda stuff.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Yeah. You can, you can in fact, uh, on the one I've got here, um, I can do this.

I can press this button and it, this is my voice.

David Perry: Oh wow..

Matt Edmundson: So yeah. Uh, we can geek out on the rodecaster pro. The thing is amazing, that's for sure. And, um, yeah, I have one on my desk as well, so, uh, love the fact you've got one. What microphone did you get?

David Perry: I got the Shure SM seven B, which is a pretty, pretty standard one for this.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it is. It is. Yeah. Good microphone choice. Good mic choice. Yeah, definitely.

David Perry: I've got the cloud lifter, which is the amplifier. Mm-hmm. . So this is, this is, um, I got no excuses now.

Matt Edmundson: You've got the proper tech setup going on. So, uh, whereabouts in the world are you, uh, streaming in with your rodecaster from?

David Perry: I'm, uh, in southern California, so near a place called Laguna Beach, and it's, uh, it's beautiful down here.

And I used to live in just outside London in Surrey. Mm-hmm. And, uh, before that I lived just outside Belfast, in Northern Ireland. So, um, you know, it's been interesting journey cuz you mm-hmm. you have to make a decision at some point. Do I leave Ireland and then you'll do I leave England and, and then now I'm in California and I'm like, do I leave California?

Yeah. Um, it, it's, it's interesting that the way sort of life opens up these opportunities and, and you end up either getting on the airplane or you don't .

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it's a really interesting, isn't it? So you've been in the state, how long have you been in the States now?

David Perry: I moved out here in 1991, so it's been a long time.

And what happened was I got this phone call from Virgin Games, so Richard Branson decided to get into the game industry. Yeah. And I got this phone call saying, we need a game made for McDonald's and it's an emergency, and can you get on a plane and just fly to California and we'll take care, whatever money you make, we'll pay you more, we'll get you a car, an apartment, but we need you to solve this problem for us.

And so, you know, I was sitting there in England in my little house thinking to myself, you know, I don't have a girlfriend right now. Um, should I just get on the plane and uh, and do this thing? And so I did and I had no idea how much I would fall in love with California. Fantastic. And so, uh, the, the, the thing about California that's kind of interesting is just.

How it's surrounded by everything. You've got the ocean and all the surfing and beaches mm-hmm. and all that. You've also got a desert, like a full on desert. Wow. Tucked behind it. In the mountains people are snowboarding and skiing all over the place. You've got Disneyland, you have Los Angeles airport, which flies everywhere in the world.

Mm-hmm. It's kind of a, a cool sort of central place where a lot of stuff happens and, um, and so I, I do like that. Now the problem is we have earthquakes and.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah. It's, it's not all sunshine and rainbows. Right.

David Perry: Yeah. There's no earthquakes in Belfast. There's no earthquakes in, uh, in Surrey. Uh, but, uh, you know, that, that's just the way you roll when you move out here.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Yeah. So you, you went there in the early nineties. Um, you didn't have a girlfriend, uh, at the time. So were you a young man when you sort of got on the plane and, and jetted off courtesy of Mr. Branson?

David Perry: Yeah, I was 24 back then, got on the plane. Um, you know, I had, I had made a lot of games and I, I sort of learned.

Um, a, a trick, which I think is quite ior important, is when you're trying to create new intellectual property, if you like, imagine I come up with a video game called Jumpy Boy. Then I have to convince the whole world that they've gotta play Jumpy Boy. Mm-hmm. and learn about it. Um, whereas if I, if I make a game, uh, for Aladdin, for example, from Disney mm-hmm.

there's all these people who already know that and want that. And if you release that with, we, we actually did Aladdin and we released it when they launched the movie, um, when you could buy the movie mm-hmm. and. And, you know, you get tons and tons and tons of sales because you're at the right place at the right time, with the right thing.

Yeah. And, and, uh, I used to go in the stores and I would watch these hands, the kids' hands, like as they were reaching to the shelves and you could see like the branded, the games with the big brands on them, their hands just magnetically go there. Um, versus, you know, jumpy Boy, which is on the bottom of the shelf and no one's touching it.

So, um, I tried both ways. I made a bunch of games that were completely original and I also made games that were, and one of the first number ones I had was the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. And so you can imagine you, yeah, yeah. In fact, do you remember in England that was called the Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles?

Matt Edmundson: Uh, yes. They couldn't use the word ninja. Yeah. Yeah.

David Perry: Ninja is not for British children, I liked the Spanish version the best. It was Tortugas Ninja and that was the best one, I think. But ultimately, um, you know, being involved in something like that and that changed my life later. So many, many years later. Um, it turned out that the, the turtles, um, uh, sold a lot of toys, as you can imagine.

Toy company that made all those toys and made billions of dollars was Playmates toys. Yeah. Today made toys for Disney and people like that. Um, and, you know, my path ended up while I was in, in America, they invited me to, to sort of visit with them and they said, we'd like to start our own video game company and would you be willing to help us build that?

Oh, wow. And, and I said to them, you know, like, it's funny, we have this history, like, uh, you know, I've worked on a, on a, on specifically on a game that really matters to you. Mm-hmm. . Um, but um, I'm not looking to really join your company, but will you fund my company? And if I start my own company in America and I hire people, will you, will you fund that?

And they said yes. So the result was, um, we ended up building, uh, you know, a very cool team called Shiny Entertainment. We made Earthworm Jim, which was, um, ahead at the time, and that was funded by Playmates Toys, the people who made the turtles. Mm-hmm. And again, thank goodness I started with the turtles.

What is that? I mean, what, how do you plan for that? Right? How can you,

Matt Edmundson: it's not in a textbook, is it? It's just not

David Perry: What does it take to make that happen. It doesn't, it, it's crazy, right. I, years ago I had to do a commencement speech, um, at Queens University in Belfast. Mm-hmm. . And when I give the speech, I talked about this and how weird random doors open and things connect and, and uh, and the dean was very unhappy with my speech at the end cuz he was like, it's not about luck, it's about education.

And I'm like, there isn't a course for this like that. It, it's not how it works. So part of it is trying to, to sort of work out where. Where the opportunities are and uh, when that, when that, when someone sort of offers you the airplane flight or the door opens, you gotta, you gotta make a big decision to, to do it.

But for me, that's worked out really well.

Matt Edmundson: It's interesting you say that because, um, , you know, if I trace back, uh, my, you know, we've had a, a string of, of successful e-commerce businesses and that's our connection, right? As e-commerce with get Carro. So, um, I've had a string of successful e-commerce businesses and, and people say to you, well what did you do?

Where did you know, did you learn this at school? And I'm like, no, I did accounting at university. It wasn't. And all that happened was literally, I remember the, if I trace it back to one event and the, it just happened to be a chance conversation with a friend of mine who said, I'm, it was in the late nineties.

And he said, I'm looking to get one of these website things that I've been hearing that I should probably get. Do you know anyone that can do them? And I knew of only one company at the time they could do websites. And I said, yeah, there's these guys that do them. They're friends of mine, but it's thousands and thousands of pounds cuz they were writing code, you know, in Notepad or whatever it was back then.

Right. And, um, and he said, oh, I haven't got that kind of money. I said, listen, I know there's some software out there. I've heard of it. It was called, um, dream Weaver going back, you know, uh, to Dream Weaver days. I said, you buy that and I'll figure it out and I'll create the website for you. Just a chance conversation.

I already had a job in the evenings. I've figured out how to use Dream Weaver, and lo and behold, I started creating websites that turned into e-commerce and here I am, you know, all these years later. And it's just bizarre, isn't it that you, like you say, you can't account for it. It just, it's just seeing that there's an opportunity.

And at the time, and I'm sure you didn't know David at the time when taking that opportunity where it would lead to, but you still took it anyway, right?

David Perry: Yeah. You see, you did the same thing with Dream Weaver. A lot of people would look at Dream Weaver and say, I don't know how to use that. So that's not. I can't do that.

Um, but you're like, no, no, no, no. I'll, I'll work this out. I'll solve this problem. And imagine it didn't work out for you. Would it have done you any harm to learn how to make websites on Dream Weaver? Like, you know, imagine that wasn't your career path, but you actually still know how to make websites on Dream Weaver.

Mm-hmm. I think that's really important. Um, you know, that you're constantly adding these, these skills. The way I think of it is we're like video game characters and, and you're, you know, when you level up, when you get better at something, you get plus one, like, I'm level archery and now I'm level four on archery or something like that.

If you think of it life a bit like that, um, you know, when you pick up Dream Weaver, it's, it's quite shockingly complicated when you first touch the thing. Yeah. But once you actually get it working and you start to learn the first sort of commands and things, suddenly you're, uh, you're actually, you know, you have a little world appearing on your, on, in a web browser mm-hmm.

and you start realizing, actually maybe I could do this. And, uh, and that's quite an unlock. And so, um, you know, I'm a huge fan of people actually, cuz you're plus one on Dream Weaver. And then you, you do another week plus two on dream weaver and another week plus three. Um, and if you think of it like that, um, it doesn't have to define who you are at all.

It just, it's something you're gonna walk much more confidently when you understand how websites are made. A lot of people have absolutely no idea what, what's going on in the internet. Um, and, and in your case you actually understand it. And so it gives you more ideas about maybe other business ideas or could I make like Dream Weaver is supposed to be easy, but it's not that easy.

Could it be easier than that? And of course people start thinking, well, I can make it easier than Dream Weaver, and suddenly you've got another company. Yeah. So that, that's the, uh, the fun part. But yeah, that's really good that you did that. And you can see it affects your life, doesn't it?

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it does. In a massive way.

And like you say, I like this idea of leveling up. Right. And it's interesting, I mean, you were obviously involved in the gaming, uh, world, this idea of leveling up. Has that always been around the gaming industry? Is that something that you've always sort of incorporated into games and so this idea of doing it in life as well has kind of made sense? Or was

David Perry: It wasn't always around. We had scores and scores were, were were good until, um, until they became not as as important and magical. We didn't really, um, You know, scores sort of died off a little cuz people wanted to just see the whole game and they don't care how many points they get, they just wanna play the entire game.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. This idea of leveling up is actually based, uh, I, I think of it, there's, there's a book called Flow and it's a very popular book. Yeah, I've read it. Yeah. Good book. And, and sort of, I process it slightly differently, which is this idea that, um, you need to know where you are and you need to know where you're going, but you need to see.

That, that whatever you just did got you closer to the goal. And, and that's very important. So imagine you're sitting there and you're working and you're working and working and you have no idea if you progressed at all. And this, by the way, happens all the time to a lot of people if they're just working and they didn't know, did I get any better at anything?

Um, and so in a video game, they go out of their way to let you see that every little thing you do is, is progressing you towards the next level. So you'll be level seven and you can see yourself getting to level seven. And the way they mathematically do it is they make level eight harder to get to. So mm-hmm.

When you get seven, then it goes, okay, you're on your way to eight, but eight's gonna be more, you know, even harder. And so, um, it's very interesting cuz the psychology is when you see yourself getting closer to a goal, this would be like climbing a mountain and you see the top of the mountain getting closer and closer and closer to you.

Um, that's what keeps you climbing. Mm-hmm. . Um, if you, if you don't know what, imagine you're in the fog, you're on a mountain, you're, you're in the fog and you can't see the top of the mountain anymore mm-hmm. and you're walking, walking, walking. You're exhausted and nothing's changed. You can't see the top. People sit down and die.

Right? Yeah. So my thing is don't die on the mountain. Um, you need to, you need to think about like, what's that next stage and have some way to see what it is. Yeah. Um, and, and anything you do and if you do, you won't stop doing it because you'll feel the progress. In video games you find that when you use that progress, um, system, it's very common.

You're almost at level 8. Um, oh my goodness, I'm almost there. And they just keep playing and then it's three in the morning and they, and that's the flow thing where they just get into the, I'm just gonna do it. I'm just gonna do it. And then they, they go to bed very comfortable and happy cuz they're now level eight.

And so, um, it's funny cuz I talk about this in business, it's quite common where whatever product you're making quite commonly, um, people at some point will get stuck and not move forward. They, they, there's some piece of, there's some step in the process that they have to make a phone call or fill out a form or do something that you know, add your credit card information and they stop and, and you lose them at that point.

And the game industry, that kind of tricks we use is like, if we find that in our game, most people stop at level seven. Um, we can see it in the data. Level seven is like a, everyone's just falling off level seven at seven and dying. So we have to get them to level eight. One of the tricks you can do is give them something that will only work when they get to level eight.

So here's a horse, here's a sword, here's something that's a, that's a level eight, um, item. And you'll find them kind of excited cuz they wanna see what, you know, what it's like to ride a horse when you get to, because they've been walking Yeah. To the first, you know, uh, set of levels. So this kind of idea.

Of in, in whatever your product is dragging you through the friction. Mm-hmm. so that you continue, um, on the other side is actually very important. But these are all, this is considered sort of gamification and, and, and some of the things that the game industry has learned, of which there are many, as you can imagine.

Matt Edmundson: Oh, I can, okay. But it's really what I'm, I'm sitting here fascinated David, because I'm, I've, I've not thought about I've, I've played games. I obvious, I have to be honest, I don't play a lot of computer games. I've played card games mainly, but I'm, I'm old school. Right. Um, but I, I, I see in the games now, this idea of leveling up and it's the reason why I asked the question cause I don't remember that when I was a kid, really.

Um, the first time I ever saw the, sort of, the different levels was when you, uh, was on the Star Wars Atari game, you know, and you went from one level to the next and there was like three levels or something. And that was kind of cool. But it's interesting, the psychology you were talking about, i.e. Scores on themselves are good, but they're not as good as leveling up.

Um, and so you're seeing this constant progression, whereas the score, it doesn't give you that constant progression? I don't know. It's interesting.

David Perry: Well, the scores the way games used to be, and this is actually for a technical reason, so games were very short because the, there wasn't much storage room to put a game into mm-hmm.

So the game might only have, you know, four levels or something. Mm-hmm. . So, um, what, what we would do is we, we'd make you start the game from the start again. So you, you'd play through, you would die three or four times, and then we'd send you back to the start mm-hmm. and, and that you had to go through that, that painful process of playing the whole game over and over and over.

But that was fine. That was how games worked back then. Yeah. But as, as the game size increased and as the content increased, people get kind of got frustrated with the resetting of everything. and they didn't really care about the score, they just wanna play your video game all the way through. So, so it was quite hard for me as a game designer at the time, going, wait, what?

We have to design the game so you don't die. Like there's no. No. How does that even work? Right? Like you're, you're just gonna keep playing. And uh, and you know, games started coming out that we're doing that and it was hard to, to argue with it. Mm-hmm. Um, you still have to, to do some things right. But ultimately, um, people would rather have progression than having to reset and start all over again.

So, but yeah, we learnt so many things from, from the way people play the games

Matt Edmundson: Oh, is amazing. But I like how you talked about that in life, how you took that process of leveling up and so, you know, actually you apply this to people, so you are the CEO of Get Carro, right. So, um, which, you know, we, we talked about is it helped Shopify people sort of get, well come, we'll talk more about Get Carro I think as we go along.

But you, you are the ceo, you have a team of people, you had a team of people in your gaming, uh, business. , how do you use this idea of leveling up in your leadership of other people if you do? I'm curious.

David Perry: It's a, it's a little, um, I, I'm from that school. It, I don't think titles are that important in companies and mm-hmm. you know, I, I, I obviously get friction on that cuz people believe that that's very important. Mm-hmm. . Um, but what I mean by that, just to be clear, is I could take your business card and write president of the United States on it. Mm-hmm. does that make you president of the United States? Mm-hmm. and the answer's not really.

No. Yeah. So therefore, um, whatever I write on someone's card, does that make them that person or do they have to be that person? Yeah. And, and it, so that's what I find is talent tends to, um, it, it, they, they tend to come in and just be amazing at, at the thing that they're, that they're actually built to do.

Um, and. And that's what you're really trying to do is assemble a team of really amazing people. I call them 10 Xers. They tend to be 10 times a normal person. And one of the, the tricks that they have, um, you know, as a DNA level thing Yeah. Is when they, when they hit hurdles, they don't talk about them. Um, they, they, 10 Xers tend to just, you know, um, like, I don't know how podcasting works.

Well, they just work it out, right? Mm-hmm. And you don't even hear about it. They don't, they don't say to you, problem, problem, problem, problem, problem. It's just solved. Mm-hmm. And so I call the hurdle jumpers, or in certain cases they kick the hurdles out of the way, which I prefer even more. So uh, but I know you've, uh, like everyone listening has always, they've always been in a meeting and, and sat there and listened to someone tell 'em why you can't do something.

Yeah. And those are not the 10 Xers. And it do, it turns out your whole team doesn't have to be this at all. It just means that you have to have those people in some of the key roles. then everything moves really fast. When you do that. You, you, you, you'd be amazed, like you can't slow them down because people are, are, uh, are hardcore.

Yeah. And, uh, and that ultimately is, I think the, the most valuable piece of building a company is finding those individuals mm-hmm. And when you get, then, then the company just really starts moving. And then I think probably the second thing is just finding people that think outside the box so they're not just copying everything.

Um, one of the things I, I think about is how easy it is to hire talent if you are offering them a job where they actually get to create things. So if I, if, you know, I, if I wanna hire someone from Facebook, for example Yeah. And they've been in cubicle for the last few years and their job is to do this one thing and they're, and they're super talented, but they're doing this one thing.

Yeah. Um, in this enormous machine, just, I call out washing the dishes. So I'm like, you know, In reality, they're just washing the dishes. They're coming to work every day. They don't have that much power. They can't make new decisions. They're not steering the future of, uh, of Facebook at all. Um, and so the, the point is, can we get you to join our team?

And, um, and here you will, like you are, there's, we're not copying anybody. There are things that are going to happen tomorrow that we're gonna sit there and go, how do you solve that? Because that hasn't been solved yet. And that, that endless innovation, um, is, is actually thrilling for engineers and creative people, um, to be able to come and do something that, that, that they know they're inventing and steering the future, that maybe other people will follow and copy.

Um, I think that's, and that's where I like to operate. So we think it was being at the tip of the spear. Um, and it can be a very dangerous place to be, uh, you know, but in reality, that's where we like to, to to be. And, um, and you can imagine the, the conversations you have when you're brainstorming, when you're in that space, really, really.

Fascinating cuz there's so many, um, directions that you can go in. Um, and so many options on the table. Um, but that's, that's generally the way we like to think with our current company. Just to give an example of that is, um, we're thinking about, um, if you were to make a product, like say you made a product tomorrow and you got it into a large retailer, um, in the US that'd be someone like Target or Walmart.

Mm-hmm. or, um, Costco would be a huge one. Um, your whole team would be going crazy cuz it's such a huge one because you're now in a major retailer getting all of the, all of the traffic and um, and money and eyeballs and everything that that organization can give you just simply by partnering with them.

Mm-hmm.. And so our thought was who does that for you online? Like who helps you get your products pushed into other people's traffic so you get their customers and their sales without paying for any of it. Today we've been trained that you have to buy every click, so you're, you're paying for every click that comes to your website mm-hmm.

Um, and, and that's a very expensive way to do it. What if you place your products into, um, you know, traffic at major respected sites and we make this effortless mm-hmm. um, that it's cool because, you know, the, the cost per thousand clicks in this scenario is zero. So how might, how, how many would you like for zero?

Yeah. Yeah. But it's, it's very relevant in, even in, in an economy like currently we have, um, you know, a pretty rough economy in the United States and, and the uk I believe it's the same. Yeah. It's, so ideally you can reduce marketing costs is, is very interesting. So, so, you know, you start in a direction like that and then you go, well, how does that work?

And, and you just run into endless problems. Like, there's just endless things that you didn't think of. So when you have, oops, sorry, I dropped something. If the, if you have two brands that are, have built their stores entirely differently. How do we connect them together so that they can actually be truly compatible and work together?

Or if you have, we have 30,000 brands installed. They all have built their stores differently and, and actually tagged all their products differently. So if you say, well, I want white, white sweatshirts, that's not necessarily going to just bring up whites. You'd be amazed what it, right. And so the, the reality is we had to then re-categorize everyone's products in everyone's stores, which we had to use computer vision for and a, a team in the Philippines to actually teach the computer vision that is doing it.

Right. And you kind of get into these, um, you know, again, it's, it's a hurdle. And we could sit there and complain about it. Oh, this, all this data is really not organized. And, and it's like, no, we just have to, we have to solve that. And so that requires a data science team, that requires a whole bunch of supervised learning.

Mm. Um, but the result is we can have millions of products, um, um, in our platform effortlessly now because we've, we've taken the time to do that. But that's what this, this, what is about, is this idea of constantly, um, just climbing over whatever it is that the, the next thing that's, that that's the problem.

Yeah. But if you do, you end up somewhere cool. And that, that's what we like.

Matt Edmundson: That's fascinating. And just to explain, actually I cuz I know what Get Carro is, and you've touched on it briefly. Um, so it is basically if I have, uh, you, well you tell the example, you told me you got the bike with the bike helmet guy, right?

That was a great example.

David Perry: Bike store. And your bike store is, is doing great. So you're doing great selling bikes but you don't sell helmets. And it's like, but that means I'm gonna have to go to Amazon to buy the helmets. Mm-hmm.. Um, and, and in reality if you sold the helmet, then you actually get that extra, um, incremental sale.

So it's your average order value will increase and also your average lifetime value for per customer will increase. Mm-hmm. , if you can get, add complimentary items and so then you go, what about gloves and a pump and a and a bike lock and all these other things? Well they didn't have those too, so why don't we give you all of those?

Cuz we have an, a whole, um, library and typically this is not drop shipping from China or something like that. It's not an affiliate thing. It's actually, no, no. These are your favorite brands. Yeah. The brands that you normally buy wholesale from, we'll just connect them into your store. So suddenly you have all the helmets and all the sizes and all the colors, um, and you can sell them and you can learn what your audience would like today.

If, if you did it, the old, the old way, you would actually go and buy wholesale, which means you're actually gonna go find someone who will sell you a pallet of helmets and you have to freight that, ensure that, put that into shelves, have people touch it, um, market it, um, have a clearance sale, restocking feeds.

When you send some of it back, it's a mess. And so all of that goes away. If you just wire the two companies together, their inventory becomes your inventory. And so it's just using, it's using technology to just solve massive, painful problems that people have just put up with in the past. Mm-hmm. Um, they, they, we, we come across companies where they are trying to do partnerships with other brands, but they're doing it all in spreadsheets.

They're FTPing inventory levels every night. It's like, and it's, and they hire people to do it, right? So they have all team of people handle it because they just have to solve the problems. But, um, but you know, by modernizing, using technology, um, you know, all of this stuff can, can rapidly improve. And so that's what we're trying to build.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. It's, I, I, you know, I, I think it's brilliant I, what you guys do, and I'm very clever and I'm looking forward to when it's not just Shopify, uh, because we're not on the Shopify platform, uh, but 2023, 2023. . So this attitude then, uh, have you, I mean, obviously at some point you decided I'm gonna start writing games, and you, you, you went, you learned, you overcome obstacles and this is what you did with Get Carro, you started it, there was an obstacle where you figure out a way around it and you just keep going, you keep going.

Is that a sort of a, is that the way you generally approach the sort of challenges that you face, uh, in business and in life?

David Perry: Well, it's you with Dream Weaver, right? I, I don't, I, I'm gonna build a company that does cloud gaming, but I know nothing about how the actual servers on the internet function mm-hmm.

Um, so I teamed up with some people, um, uh, that, that became my co-founders who were engineers that, that were very technical in, in, uh, you know, on the server sort of core server code. I actually built the first server on my dining room table, drove to Los Angeles and pushed it into Iraq. And I'd never been to a data center before.

Mm-hmm. That was kind of fascinating. And then we realized, well, hold on. We need servers all over the country. How are we gonna do that? And, and the answer is, well, if you pay, it's gonna, you could do that, but it's gonna cost, afford pay for all these data centers. So, um, I went onto, I'm not kidding you, I went onto Wikipedia and I looked up the largest, uh, you know, data, uh, backbone internet operators.

And I, I, wow. I called each one and I, and some wouldn't return my call, some, took my call, we're trying to sell me services and uh, and one of them was called savis. And I, and the guy, I'm from savis, I said to him, look, you know, what I actually need is I need a map of the US with each of your data centers, and I wanna see how fast

your connections are, cuz this needs to be super high performance. Mm-hmm. , and I know it's not a circle. So if you send me a map with a circle on it, it's fake. Right? I need. It shows like from this city, it's like a big kidney shape or a heart shape selling. I need that. And the guy goes to me, dude, if that existed, I could sell the hell out of that.

Like, that's, that would be so valuable to me for my job. And, and I said, well, can you introduce me to the CEO and we'll, we'll, we'll see if we can, we can help you make that. And so he, he did. And I, I'm then, you know, sitting in, uh, St. Louis with uh, um, with the CEO of, of, uh, savis and he said, you know, this would be great.

Let's work together. You can use our network for free. And, uh, and so suddenly it was a huge unlock. So suddenly you have this whole backbone, um, major internet company saying, you have a free run of our data centers. You can put servers anywhere you want. Wow. You can imagine startup. The value of that was profound.

But it's like, but I'm calling phone numbers after looking companies up in Wikipedia. Right? So what is that? Is that tenacity or is that stupidity? I don't know. Um, but in reality, um, it's how you get stuff done and yeah. And so the, the, the result was profoundly helpful for us, um, as a startup. Um, and, you know, long, long story short, this is when I've worked with really interesting people.

Um, I've, I've noticed that they tend to do things like that. Um, when we, when we, uh, years ago we got to work on the Matrix video game, and the Wachowskis literally pulled up in a limo outside our offices mm-hmm.. And I was like, you really took the time to come down here. And, uh, and they just, it, it it's that lesson that you have to meet the people that are going to do the thing.

Yeah. They have to walk the office and see the people and see it's real, and, and, and, uh, and then, and then they're totally comfortable and, and they can do the thing. I was so impressed. You know, because a lot of people don't get in the car and take the time to go and, uh, and check the thing out. Um, it, it's funny, my, my daughter's, um, I, I'm this thing that I, that I talk about, about trying to learn, um, something about everything.

Even my daughter's now, so she's, uh, currently watching a, a course on, on real estates. Uh, you know, being a real estate agent and learning how to buy, buy homes and all the rest of it. Wow. Not that she's gonna be a real estate agent. It's just interesting. Mm-hmm. and, and, uh, and you know, it's like just seeing the advice they're giving.

It's like that all the way through. There's just so much great advice on how to, um, and how to interact with people, how to make decisions, um, all around it. So you can go, but I've, no, I'm not gonna be a real estate agent, so why should I ever watch that? That's stupid. Right? It's a waste of my time. It's not a waste of your time.

There's all these interesting things you learn about how to deal with people, find talent, negotiate, et cetera. And it, and it, and it just, you file it all away and then you move on to the next thing. Mm-hmm. And, um, and so, you know, she'll move on to stocks when she's done with mm-hmm. The real estate course, and then she'll move on to, um, editing video using Da Vinci resolve.

Right. You know? Mm-hmm. Something like that. And, and that continuous growth of, of, of your awareness and how everything works, I think becomes really valuable. Um, later in life when you're, when suddenly you need to do something like that and you're like, oh actually I know, I know how this works. Um, and, and so it's, it's so fun to watch her starting effectively from, from zero, cuz she's coming out of high school and now she's starting on this course.

But it's, it's, it's, um, I think it's incredibly helpful with rapport whenever you're meeting people. Wherever. Like I go into business meetings and I know that there's something that we do in common. There's something, yeah. That they're into that I'm into, they get, they're into woodworking. I can talk their leg off on woodworking, you know, they're into photography.

I can talk their leg off on photography, water skiing, flying helicopters, you name it. I, I can, I can go and go and go. And so that's, I think, an important piece that, um, and it's not, it shouldn't be treated as like, oh, this is a grind. Like I just, this is killing me. Having to, to learn about cameras work. Um, I did the podcasting set up not to become a podcaster.

I, I hate the idea that there's this thing that's so popular that I don't fully understand. Yeah. And so I know what's the best software, what's the best hardware. Mm-hmm. how it all is configured and works. And then I can file it away and move on to the next thing. Yeah. But if you meet someone that's into podcasting, I can talk.

you know, intelligently about it because I understand it and I've actually set up my sound effects and everything, you know? I get it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's, it's fun to do that stuff. Um, but anyway, that, so that's what I'm, I'm, I'm generally when, when someone has a chance to do something that you normally would say, well, I, I don't have time, or, that's not my thing.

Mm-hmm. Just do it. Just do it. Just have a go ahead. And someone once said to me, will you jump out of an airplane with me? And I was like, uh, I guess I have to. You don't wanna, I have no interest in doing, in jumping outta an airplane at all. But I'm like, damn, I guess I gotta do it. So,

Matt Edmundson: and did you do it?

David Perry: Of course.


Matt Edmundson: And would you do it again?

David Perry: Never. Um, so , and, and this is why this is important, because whatever you do, you end up with a story. Yeah. Doing that. So I'm six foot eight. You can't tell that from this. From, from, from a sort of a Zoom chat. But in reality six eight, when you have a dude on your back that's your instructor who's just a little guy, he looked like Yoda on my back,

in far too fast. And I'm trying to run, think about this. When you come in too fast, my legs hit the ground first. So I'm running with a guy on my back. And, uh, that didn't, that didn't work out. We ended up with his face planting. Oh wow. And I got, I got rather beaten up and they made a video of it with the, um, with the Queen song.

Another one Bites the Dust, which was.

Matt Edmundson: So it makes a good social media meme now. Right. Uh, just don't give that to your daughter when she's got Da Vinci resolve. It'll appear everywhere. That's brilliant. So where did this, um, this philosophy of learn something about everything and everything about something, is that, is that kind of, it seems to be like a thread throughout all the stories you've told so far? Or is this something that's a point in time you consciously went, no, this is what I'm gonna do?

David Perry: Yeah. I, I once, um, I used to go to the TED conferences a lot and they, and they actually force some introspection. Mm-hmm. , uh, you spend a lot of time listening to really smart people and you start thinking about, what am I built for?

What am I all about? What do I do? And it was one day I was sitting in my office and I had just asked for a new PC, can you get me a new PC? Um, uh, and then I, I sat there and I went, well, what is it I really like to do? And the answer is, I like to learn, um, and, and not learn in a boring way. Learn in an understand the world way.

Mm-hmm. . And so I went, why did I just order a computer? Because, you know, I should know how to do that myself. And, and so I literally was like, no, no, no, I'll just actually build one myself. Okay. And I, I got the parts in and I remember sitting on my office floor building the most badass computer exactly the way I wanted with the color lights and everything the way I wanted it.

Um, kind of going, this is exactly, um, what I love to do, there should be no mystery. And I used to, and almost jokingly when I would inter interview people as I'd ask them about their computer and you know, like imagine you and I are doing a job interview right now. Yeah. And I would say, you know, tell me about your computer.

Mm-hmm. and you know, Graham, how much memory, what, what processor is it using? And the, the answers are just terrible. Right. You'd be stunned. People have absolutely no idea. Um, the thing they're using all day, every day. That's so critical. Yeah. That they keep customized and make it, you know, the way they want it.

Yeah, yeah. Of no, no concept of what's going on. And so that's. The, the idea of saying, you know what, I'm actually gonna find this out and I'll, and I'll go through the process. There's a, this was, most of the stuff I did was pre, um, you know, the, the, the density of YouTube videos. There are today, these days just about everything is explained simply, clearly on video.

And so just, and they'll tell you what to buy and how to put it together, um, to some extent, that to me, then makes things almost required. You should definitely give that a try. Yeah. And, you know, like, just anything that you really are gonna use a lot or, or, you know, might be helpful to know about. Mm-hmm.

um, it's YouTube, it, there's, there's a video somewhere. There is, um, I'm currently, uh, into e-bikes. Um, that's my latest, latest thing. Um, so I bought a really, I, I, uh, my friends were riding e-bikes and I thought to myself, there's got to be someone in the world that's making a ridiculously cool e-bike. And I found a company in, in Australia, and I bought one.

This was, this was, I, I started in 2014. Mm-hmm. Um, so back then the bike that I got was ridiculous for the time. Yeah. Yeah. I recently did the same thing again. I went online and found, you know, and normally e-bikes about 750 watts. You can get 3000 watts, 4,000 watts's, 5,000 watts mines 15,000. And so, you know, it's that.

I, I did the same with drones. When drones came out, I was building them myself. And, um, you know, really just my, I have a, a little, a table up in the garage that allows me just to lay out all the bits and, and just start putting together drones. And it was so cool because at that time, drones were brand new.

This was before they had that bad rap that they have now. Yeah. Yeah. Devices. So when I would go out with the drone at a national park or something, people would come up to me going, what is this? Like, this is incredible. And I'd show them the screen and they just melted their brains. If I had a stack of them, I could have just sold them on the spot.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Over time, you know, then they got, they got, people started to think that, you know, um, the, the, the worst thing in the world and they wanna shoot them out of the air. But in, in, in reality, learning how those things work, you actually start thinking to yourself, what would be a good drone?

Like mm-hmm. now that you know, how, how they work and how to build them. Then you start literally, I started designing my own, like, what's the, how far could a drone actually get mm-hmm. and, you know, you end up literally designing the whole drone around the battery, so it's a flying battery just to see how far you can go.

Mm-hmm. but that again, that, that process of learning. Um, about something like that. Isn't that I'm going to be flying drones all day every day? That's not, not the point at all. The point is, when I meet somebody in a business environment that's really into drones, like that's their thing. Yeah. I'm there. I got you.

I can carry that conversation. You can talk to them. That's, that's probably, um, something that's helped me the most in my life, no doubt about I've been invited to the most unbelievable situations and met really incredible people. Um, and these doors tend to open, um, through those relationships that you, that you build this way.

And one of the, one of the thing I would recommend, by the way, is learn one magic trick. Um, you need one trick. Such a good tip. Such a good tip. That would be very, Do not learn magic. You don't need a show. Uh, you know, you don't buy a magic book with 500 tricks. They're so boring. Do not do that. But, but find, somehow find one professional trick and then you can perform that and people will be like, oh my God, that's amazing.

That's, and you. Yeah.

Matt Edmundson: That's such a good tip. Such a good tip. Yeah. I learned that very early on actually. I, there's like two or three card tricks that I know and they, and, and you can just pull them out at any time. And people are like, wow, that's amazing. But I love this. Um, I, I mean, I love what you're talking about.

There's, there's a lot of, um, learning, there's a lot of creativity, there's a lot of fun, there's a lot of challenge with the sort of things that you are talking about. Um, I'm curious though, David, I mean, in one sense, It's like you're talking about me. I could, I could match part of your story just with a whole bunch of other stories.

Um, and actually I find that whole learning thing quite challenging. It's what I, a a lot of it is what I do in my downtime. Um, I like woodwork. You like woodwork and I'm, and you go and you figure it out. Right. Um, and I, I'm just curious, do you find it life giving or, or there, are there other things that you do to sort of, um, recharge your tank to sort of recharge your batteries, sort of refill your tank type thing?

Um, you know, out of the busyness of life? Um, I'm, I'm, is this what you do as well? Or, or is that something else?

David Perry: Yeah, that was another epiphany I had, which was I do a lot of business work, so I'm doing spreadsheets and PowerPoints and making lists of things and, you know, having conference calls. And I, I thought to myself one day when I, when I'm dead, Um, is my daughter going to cherish any of that stuff?

Matt Edmundson: cherish his spreadsheet.

David Perry: My dad made this spreadsheet.

Matt Edmundson: print it off and put it on the wall. Yeah, yeah.

David Perry: It's not gonna happen. So I actually had a, a moment of, damn, I'm not really contributing much, um, to that sort of space. If you, um, an analogy I use is if you look around the room that you're in right now, there are objects everywhere. Um, and every single thing someone obsessed over and use their talent and creativity to make it Yeah.

Kind of go, well, hold on. How far does that go? I'm talking down to the screw. There was a guy who said, this is the right screw and this is the right threads and this is the right metal. They care about everything. And so you have this whole world that we interact with that other people are building. And it's a little sad that, that we don't necessarily participate in that and those are the things that are more likely to survive, um, time.

Yeah. And that's funny enough why I thought woodworking would be interesting is if I made some furniture that people would go, my dad made that, or my grandpa made that, and it's really cool. Um, then that's, that's interesting. Uh, when I approach it, I learned how to use computers to help carve the wood. So I do, you know, things that a normal human would find incredibly hard to do.

Um, but, but I'm using, you know, computers to do it. Yeah. You know, and, and you end up Yeah. CNC and you end up with, um, you know, real wood workers think you're cheating cuz you're using computers. But no, it's, I'm still taking a block of walnut and making something really nice out of it. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I don't think so.

It's a bit like in photography, if you learn Photoshop, a lot of people don't learn Photoshop, so therefore Photoshop must be evil. Right? Yeah. It's just ruining the cause it's the worst thing ever. But when you actually learn it. It's a wonderful thing. And it, and it's, it, it augments the, the, the, the photos that you're taking.

And so I'm a bit of a fan of that sometimes bringing technology to something that's analog. Mm-hmm. . But at the end of the day, I like to leave stuff behind. So pictures. Yeah. Like if I take a photograph of someone and that's their favorite picture of themselves, and this has happened to me, where literally that becomes their icon.

You can get everywhere they go on their social media, that becomes who, who they are. The thrill of the fact that I got that moment mm-hmm. , which it can never again, like that moment that they personally think they look really good, I think is really, really fun. So, you know, what is that? Well, that's actually taking a step outside of the, the sphere in which you operate.

Like I, I go to work, I do my thing. Mm-hmm. I, I go home, you know, I watch TV and I go to sleep. That's not, that, you're not leaving a lot behind then. So the question is, you know, can you, can you learn how to get, um, a, an authentic expression out of someone? Can you learn how to make people laugh when you're taking their pictures?

Yeah. And, and, but you can see my brain just immediately goes down that rabbit hole of who will teach me that? I don't have time to learn that. Mm-hmm. , so who will teach me that like in, in a day? Mm-hmm. , um, someone who's done it for 30 years to teach me in a day. Yeah. And, uh, and then, and, and that, that, the thing is that whatever you wanna learn, there's somebody who's done it for 30 years that will teach you easily weekend, or maybe the most I've ever had is four or five days for the download.

Mm-hmm. . And, uh, and you walk around, um, it's a bit like in the Matrix where they're like, I need to fly a helicopter, and then they shutter and something they can at a fly a helicopter. Well, there is a real, there is, that does exist today. That's called finding an expert and, and paying them, you know, for a weekend or whatever they need to do.

Mm-hmm. to do the download. And the value of that is so immense. I, I was at a woodworking, um, um, like a conference once, and there was this guy who. Been woodworking for 30 plus years, who said, this is the best varnish. And I, and I went up to him at the end and I go, you probably think there's no value to that statement.

This is the best varnish.

Matt Edmundson: But that really is.

David Perry: But he's been through them all. Mm-hmm. , and he worked this out. And that's the one that I'm gonna be buying. And of course I did and it's amazing. Mm-hmm. , um, which one was it? It was called Armor Seal. It's very, very, okay. Amazing. Mm-hmm. . Um, and, , you know, what, what is that? The fact that there's so many people out there willing to share mm-hmm. what they've learned. Why wouldn't you accept that and absorb that information?

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Um, I'm with, with you. I'm with you. I think a large part of my disposable income has gone on books, online courses, uh, you know, just learning, just find, like you say, finding the best people that can teach you and then, then just learning from them.

And I like your, your, your thing about, you know, your legacy. What are you leaving behind your, your bit of furniture? Um, I find, um, I'm like you. I like to, I like to bring digital into the analog world because digital is my world. But I, like you, we've joked about this before, you know, you build furniture and I build furniture.

I'm sad at a desk that I made, for example, in a, in a studio, which I built, uh, outta scrap wood. But that's another story. But the, the thing I like about it is it's not totally digital, right? I, I'm having to use my hands. I can bring CNC into it. Um, I actually have, uh, I'm gonna talk Shop now listeners.

Sorry, we're just gonna talk woodwork for the next few minutes. Um, have you come across the shaper Origin? Yeah, absolutely. Mm-hmm. so I have one of those, right? I use that thing all the time. It's unbelievable what that thing can do. My 13, not 13 she's 15 now, uh, when I got it, she was 13. She was using it all the time to do woodwork as well.

And it's just a great sort of bonding thing. But I like the fact that it was different to my day-to-day, but I could, it was, it was familiar enough that I could bring a little bit of what I knew with the digital to make this world a little bit easier as well. And I found that, you know, spending a day in a workshop for me is a brilliant way to unwind from spending all week doing something digital, right?

Um, it was, that was what sort of recharged my batteries. And so, um, what's your, the, out of the stuff that you've made, what's the, the thing that you are most proud of? I'm really curious.

David Perry: Um, well, um, it's funny cuz well just touch, touching on the shaper Origin. The, the concept of that is that you're, you're taking a device and setting it down and it moves around and cuts the wood, right?

Mm-hmm. that is that you could build something very large. I went about it the other way, which is I had to buy a big, large gantry, which is right, 12 by six feet that moves around. So I'm actually always limited by the amount of mm-hmm. wood that can be placed down, whereas you can keep going. Um, but overall, I think the things that I made that were, were coolest.

I had a, an employee who was getting married and I said, let me make you something. And she said to me, will you make. So, um, I, I really want to get some kind of bench for the end of my bed and I'd like it to fit perfectly, and I'm like, this is, this is exactly what we can do. Yeah, totally. Yeah. she said to me, here's some things I, I like the look of.

And they were pillow shaped, you know, like that old style, uh, you know, where there's, they're cushiony. And I thought, can I do that with cnc? And then I started playing with it, like making sort of little wooden cushions and carved it out of walnut. And, um, and the final product was, was gorgeous. I mean, it just, it was gorgeous.

And by the way, it had that varnish on it. The really good I mean, it popped right. You'd need sunglasses, but it was. It was beautiful. Um, and then I took a class, um, there was this guy who's a Korean woodworker, and he said, uh, you know, I'm gonna teach you how to make, uh, furniture the Korean way. Mm-hmm. And so we walk into the class and he says, okay, everybody, you're gonna hate this, but we're gonna, we're gonna saw for six hours and you are not allowed to use any, any powered tools.

And, and we had this, we had to literally just stand. And he goes, the reason is, is because in the end of the, you'll never take the time to do this, but I'm gonna force you to, and the end of it, you're gonna, you're gonna learn how to saw properly. And, and it means from this way forward, anytime you need to just saw things.

Well yeah. Uh, you know, we're gonna show you how to do it. Right. And, um, and I came home with a zen desk. Like a bench? Yeah. Like sitting outside. That is a cantilever shape, so, okay. It's not legs on one side, it's sort of mm-hmm. . It's. Sort of heavy joint on one on one side and to, to sort of come away with something like that, that, that is a beautiful piece of furniture.

It's kind of, and cool. I think people would like that. Um, and you kind of go, I'm glad I took the time to do that. Right. That, that actually took the time to, to look up, there's a place in Anaheim near Disneyland where this guy will teach you this thing. Mm-hmm. . I'm so glad I, I took the time to go do that.

And so that would be, I, I, I mean my problem is, is like, what about cooking? You know, I haven't had time yet. That's on my list. like, I gotta gotta learn. But do you believe it's a really good chef out there would teach you how to make an amazing, you know, you know, whatever it is, beef Wellington or something.

Mm-hmm. . Uh, and the answer is of course there is. And you just have to actually get on with it and then you'll make amazing beef Wellington. Yeah. You'll, you know. Yeah. You know, that's the, that's the bottom line. So, absolutely. Anyway. and I made another table for a friend, uh, who, who had got married. And, um, and that was a, a, an outdoor table, but it was, um, what I realized is that that wood is, is a very different quality.

So mm-hmm. , if you just order, you're gonna get garbage. Um, and if you find a guy in Philadelphia with a, you know, a certain walnut trees, um, and you be, become his friend, so you have to have rapport. Mm-hmm. So you have to speak with a friend, and then you have to explain what you're doing. And you say, I'm building this as heirloom furniture for my family, so I want my, my daughter to be able to enjoy this.

He'll, he'll get into the story, he'll get excited about it. He's, he, he's like, you're not gonna just chop this up and make stairs out of it or something. No, no, no, no, no. This is, this is going to, to be used for this kinda stuff. And he goes, I've got the wood for you, right? Mm-hmm. And suddenly a pallet of wood shows up.

That is just, Gorgeous, and it's the stuff you would build, uh, maybe guitars out of, and you know, that level of of wood, but because they're in and you've, you've built rapport with them, suddenly you have things to work with that normally people just couldn't get their hands on. And that's what's really, that's brilliant.

Matt Edmundson: That's brilliant. Uh, David, listen, I could wax lyrical about woodwork all night long, uh, and walnut and so on and so forth, and I just, it's, it's just, it's fantastic talking to you, but I'm aware of time, um, and, uh, we always unfortunately have to draw these conversations to a close. Um, if people wanna reach out to you, what's the best way to do that?

David Perry: The easy way to find me is Mm-hmm. So, um, that's, that's the easiest way, um, for our company. Our website is If you install, if you have a Shopify store and, uh, and it's doing well, please join our network and we'll help you grow. And that, um, if, if they go to and install, just make sure to email and tell them about this podcast and we'll take really good care of you.

So that would definitely be the thing to do.

Matt Edmundson: Fantastic. Well, that's brilliant. We'll put all of those links in the show notes. I'm really curious, my final question for you, right, because as you know, this show is sponsored by Aurion Media, which specializes in helping folks like me, like you, uh, set up and run their own podcast.

So you've got your, you've got your roadcaster, right? Yeah. Uh, and you've got your, your SM 58 microphone with your, you know, cloud lifter set. You've got your podcast that you've got the camera cuz you're a photographer, you set, everything's set up. I'm really curious, who are the guests that you would have on your show, out of the people that have sort of impacted your life, who would be there, who would you want to talk to?

David Perry: I would probably, um, really try to, to, to get to the most creative people. Um, I think just the, the conversations are so incredibly valuable with those people when you mm-hmm. when you deal with, uh, directors. Um, the Wachowskis were a good example. Just listening to how they converse with each other and mm-hmm. and, and the knowledge of the movies that they have is just fascinating.

And so going through. uh, you know, and, and then there's a business side too. And then, and there's investors too. They're really, actually very interesting. Investors are interesting because they hear everybody's pitches. Yeah. So, I mean, honestly, I'm jealous because imagine you go in a room and people tell you everything they know about where they're going in the future and all the things they've sort of studied and, and trends and why what they're doing is exceptional in you.

And then you just go to the next meeting and you get the same thing and the same thing. You're getting all this download of information from really smart people. And so I think that's, um, those kind of people would be really interesting as well. And trying to help people understand how to raise money and, and, and, you know, what these people look for.

Mm-hmm. But again, I dunno if I could get stuck into one theme. I think how you can, just listening to me, I would love to end up talking to people about whatever, whatever it is that they do. Um, and, and that's generally how I roll. So I think there's something to be learned from all of these different people Yeah.

And how they approach what they do. And then you can sort of work out, well, how can I use that in my life? Mm-hmm. that's probably the way to go.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. That is, funnily enough, that's one of the, the beautiful things about push. Uh, I get to talk to people like yourself and pick their brains. For now, it's awesome, uh, the stuff that you learn.

Uh, so David, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast, bud. It's been fantastic as always, always enjoy our conversations. Um, it's been an absolute treat. Thank you.

David Perry: No. Thank you for inviting me.

Matt Edmundson: Oh, it's been great. So there you have it. What a fantastic conversation with Mr. Perry there. Thank you so much again, Dave, for joining me.

And also, again, a big shout out to today's show sponsor Aurion Media. If you are wondering if podcasting is a good marketing strategy for you, whether you have the road procaster or not, uh, to connect with them at Uh, we will of course link to them in the show notes as well as to David himself and his websites.

Uh, they are available at Uh, so you can, uh, get the, all of that sort of stuff. Now be sure to follow, push to be more, uh, wherever you get your podcast from because we've got yet more great conversations lined up and I don't want you to miss any of them. And in case no one dear listener has told you yet today, you are awesome.

Yes, you are. Uh, it's just a burden you've got to bear. David's got to bear it. I have to bear it. Uh, it's just the truth. Uh, so Push To Be More is produced by Aurion Media. You can find their entire archive of episodes on your favorite podcast app. The team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Beynon, Josh Catchpole, Estella Robin and Tim Johnson.

Our theme music was written by my very talented son, Josh Edmundson. And as I mentioned, if you would like to read the transcript or show notes, head to the website, And if you haven't done so already, sign up for the weekly newsletter and get all of the links, all of the magic straight to your inbox, totally for free.

That's it from me. That's it from David. Thank you so much for joining us. Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world. I'll see you next time. Bye for now. Thanks.