Empowering Women in Leadership | Belinda Clemmensen

Sadaf Beynon [0:13 - 1:53]: Hey there, and welcome back to Push to Be More. I'm Sadaf Beynon, one of the hosts for this show. And today we've got another great conversation about what it takes to make life work. Joining me today is our special guest, Belinda Clemmensen. I'm really excited to hear about her unique life experiences, the hurdles she's had to push through, the way she recharges her spirit, and the steps she's taking to be more. In other words, it's all about push to be more. This episode is brought to you by Podjunction, a podcast production service where we're all about helping businesses share their stories and build real connections through their power, through the power of podcasting. Being part of the team at Podjunction, I've seen firsthand how podcasting can be a gift for reaching people and making a real impact through meaningful conversations. Now, I know a lot of you listening are leaders and entrepreneurs. And if you're curious about what podcasting can do for you, your business, or if you're wondering where to even start, head over to podjunction.com we'd love to help make the process clear and approachable for you. Podcasting offers a unique way to expand your reach and connect with your audience and in ways that you may not have considered. And honestly, it's so much easier than you might think. So head over to podjunction.com and see what podcasting can do for you. And now meet Belinda. Belinda is the CEO and founder of Women's Leadership Intensive and a champion for empowering female female leaders to thrive and make a meaningful impact. Her book, Women, Leadership, and Saving the World, equips women in leadership to help shape a better future for everyone. Belinda, welcome to the show. How are you today?

Belinda Clemmensen [1:53 - 1:56]: Thank you so much, Sadaf. I'm great, thanks. How are you?

Sadaf Beynon [1:56 - 1:59]: I'm well, thank you. It's a real pleasure to have you.

Belinda Clemmensen [1:59 - 2:02]: It's really great to be here. I've been looking forward to this conversation.

Sadaf Beynon [2:03 - 2:06]: Yes, absolutely. All right, so shall we get stuck in?

Belinda Clemmensen [2:06 - 2:07]: Let's do it.

Sadaf Beynon [2:07 - 2:18]: As you know, I'm part of Podjunction, and the question I would like to kick off with is if you had your own podcast and could invite anybody to be your guest, who would you have on and why?

Belinda Clemmensen [2:18 - 4:30]: This is probably one of the hardest questions I've had to prepare for for a podcast of all the podcast podcast that I've done, because I think there are so many people that I would love to talk to in this podcast format where we just get to have a conversation. So I. I actually did spend a lot of time reflecting on this. And, and the person that I came up with of the, of the very long list was Jody Wilson Raybolt, who is a Canadian Indigenous woman. She is a, a Member of Parliament. She is the former Attorney General of Canada. She has been a regional Indigenous chief of an assembly of first nations in British Columbia here in Canada. And she actually resigned her position over a government scandal that happened a few years ago under the leadership of our now former Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. And from what I could see, you know, just as a citizen watching this unfold, she resigned because of a clash of values, right? There was a scandal involving a corporation and government interference and I think a criminal case with this organisation. And I think she was getting some pressure to behave in a certain way or take certain decisions and decided not to and instead resigned that position. And so I think there's just so much happening in that situation with her that I'm so curious about, right? Like, what did it take for her to even get there as an Indigenous woman in Canada? You know, what was the decision to resign a position like that, like knowing that she is the only indigenous woman who's ever held it, you know, the intersectionality there, the, the life story that she must have, what is she doing now? How does she feel back on the whole situation? You know, I just feel like I could ask her a million questions about her life and about that experience of the journey there, the journey to leave, you know, what do you think?

Sadaf Beynon [4:30 - 4:35]: I mean, I know you, you don't know because you haven't asked her, but what do you think some of the answers to those questions would be?

Belinda Clemmensen [4:35 - 5:49]: You know, I think with all my years of working with women in leadership and supporting women into, you know, human centric values based, meaningful leadership roles. You know, a story that I hear a lot from women is that they feel that in a lot of situations, whether it's in, you know, governments or corporations or what have you, that there is a feeling of needing to compromise their values, right, in some way. Values around sustainability, values around inclusion, values around even things like asking for more from people, right? Asking, you know, this whole, like, do more with less. You know, there's a, there's a cognitive dissonance there, right? This idea of we all need to do more with less, like that math doesn't actually work for most of us. You know, maybe there's some creativity or innovation that will help us do more with less, but beyond that, how are we getting the more out of people, right? And so we're asking for that, for people to give more and more and more and more for what? To what? Who benefits? You know, So I think leadership these days is a pretty tough job.

Sadaf Beynon [5:49 - 5:52]: Belinda, you're talking about challenges. What are some of yours?

Belinda Clemmensen [5:52 - 8:25]: Yeah, I think, you know, I feel similarly, I resonate a lot or relate a lot with what the challenges are that people talk to me about my clients and the women in our programmes, the men in our programmes too for that matter. You know, as an entrepreneur, I think, you know, we, we all sort of know the story of women's entrepreneurship, whether it's in Canada or any other place that they're, it's a very similar story, right? The funding adventure Capital is terrible. You know, like women owned businesses get, what is it like less than 3% or something of venture capital funding. So there's, there's very little money. I think we're more scrutinised for business loans and other things, you know, so there's challenges there. You know, there's the sort of way that women's businesses are discussed in the world. You know, a lot of them are sort of considered a, you know, a side hustle or a project as opposed to a legitimate business that feeds your family and contributes to the economy and employs people. So I think I faced a lot of those kinds of challenges. But I'm also in the business of, you know, advancing equity and inclusion in the world. And so I'm inherently then asking my clients to change, right? And I think a lot of, a lot of organisations or a lot of us like to think about change and health and positive change that we want. But when I, when it's actually time to do the work of change, it's pretty uncomfortable, right? And especially when it comes to change in these human systems, things around equity and inclusion. And so that kind of change is even more uncomfortable. So essentially I'm asking my clients, I'm basically going in and say like, pay me to make you and your people uncomfortable, right? And it's going to go to a good place, we're going to get to somewhere better. But it's not going to be easy, it's not going to be a quick fix, it's not going to necessarily feel comfortable. People are going to have to change, they're going to have to learn, you know, it's, it's, it's going to the good. But it is a difficult thing to tell people. You know, it's like, I often joke, it's like I'm, I get paid to tell people things they don't want to hear. You know, it's like if we're looking at equity in someone's organisation, I'm like, okay, well, so give me, give me your numbers. Like, how are you doing on things like women in leadership roles? You know, and let's, let's really look at it. Let's, let's see what you have. Let's see what your starting point is and see what needs to change for you to move forward. And some of those changes are things that, that are going to feel painful.

Sadaf Beynon [8:25 - 8:32]: Yeah. Belinda, you said that the story of the former Attorney general. Forgot her name. Was it Jody.

Belinda Clemmensen [8:32 - 8:34]: Jody Wilson Raybol Jody Wilson.

Sadaf Beynon [8:34 - 8:45]: Yeah. You said her story kind, you resonated with that. So tell me a bit about your story and how you got to where you are and some of the challenges that you've had to come up against.

Belinda Clemmensen [8:46 - 11:41]: Yeah, I think, you know, I, I have, I've only worked in a quote, unquote, real job one year out of my life. And it was great. It was a great job. I loved my boss, I loved my work. But even so, I couldn't tolerate working for somebody else. I grew up in an entrepreneurial household. My parents owned a business, still do. My father's 80 years old and still working, which I'm not sure if that's a good role model or not good role model, I can't tell yet. I'm still working that out. And I think I've always known that I don't fit into the status quo. I'm curious. I'm a critical thinker, challenging assumptions. And I think I've been, you know, to have an entrepreneurial example that kind of gave me a pathway, a different pathway I could take. Looking back on that was probably just a huge gift in terms of my career because it has given me a little bit more freedom and space to sort of change, explore. You know, I'm, I, I just turned 55 years old and it's interesting, interesting to me how there's this notion of, like, when you get to be that age, people are sort of like, oh, well, you know, the smart thing to do, the reasonable thing to do, the normal thing to do would just be kind of like just kind of rinse and repeat, right. And then retire. You know, hold on to as much cash as you can. Probably that's the smart thing to do and just, you know, keep on going. But, like, it's not like you're going to do something that new at this point. Right. Why would you, why would you disrupt and, you know, I'VE been kind of reflecting on that and thinking, yeah, I guess maybe somewhere that makes logical sense, but I'm absolutely not interested in that, you know, and, and every year, if I'm able to look at my business and my work and I've got some energy, right, I'm not exhausted, I'm not burnt out, I look at it and say, it's changing, right? Like I'm in the business of people. Of course it's changing every year. You know, this, this, this social context changes every year. Things that just happened in the US have changed. What's happening in my work and in my world, you know, we're heading into an election cycle here, like, moving. And so I think for me, I've, it's taken me a long time to accept it, but the reality is I am always moving too. And that might not be the most business savvy approach, but it is the one that makes me feel more alive and interested and curious and part of the world. So, yeah, I'm going with it.

Sadaf Beynon [11:42 - 12:11]: I heard someone say that they had an identity crisis because they were an immigrant, moved to a different country, had, you know, parents from separate countries again, and often said, you know, someone said to me, who, like, who are you? Felt like they didn't know. But when he began to see it as it's not about actually who I am, but who I'm becoming, it completely reframed how he saw that. And actually, as you're talking, it reminded me of, of what he said.

Belinda Clemmensen [12:11 - 12:23]: You know, I love that. I love that. And there's so much humanity in that. Right. Like, who are you? Is a static question for a dynamic creature, a dynamic being. Who are you becoming? Feels more, more, more truthful.

Sadaf Beynon [12:24 - 12:24]: Yeah.

Belinda Clemmensen [12:24 - 12:24]: To me.

Sadaf Beynon [12:24 - 12:34]: Yeah. So, yeah, no, I, I hear what you're saying. So what brought you to this place? Being the CEO and founder of Women's Initiative Leadership.

Belinda Clemmensen [12:34 - 13:50]: Yeah, I, I've been doing leadership development for a long time. I was really lucky to almost fall into it by accident early on. Loved it, Went, you know, did the deep dive. I really believe that, you know, we spend so much of our time at work that this leadership piece really, really matters to our experiences at work. And I was doing sort of, you know, what I'm going to call, like more general leadership development for a very long time. And then as I was in my late 40s, I was just really starting to have a bit of a crisis in terms of, like, was what I was doing actually making change or was I just now like a cog in the Wheel of the Machine was I just sort of essentially helping them build a better widget, you know, in terms of the work that I was doing around leadership. And I realised, you know, that I started off my career pretty idealistic in terms of wanting to make things better, wanting to make positive changes. And I think I'd been worn down by the experiences, you know, of just earning a living and getting the next clients and being constrained by budgets or by attitudes or by, you know, we can't do that here or whatever it might be. The compromises.

Sadaf Beynon [13:50 - 13:51]: Yeah.

Belinda Clemmensen [13:51 - 15:57]: And so I had a bit of a, you know, just that crisis of consciousness which actually lasted for me several years. It wasn't quick, but through that process I started to ask myself different questions. Right. So it's like, you know, I've got this body of work in leadership that I, I felt good about, I believed in what I was teaching. It just wasn't being applied in a way that felt meaningful enough for me. So I just started to ask myself, you know, if I was, if I was going to apply that in a way that did feel meaningful and that was connected to my values in a much, much stronger way, what would that look like? And I kind of went back to my feminist roots and just started looking at, you know, in my 40s at that point, like what had, what progress had been made, you know, in terms of women in leadership and gender equity over the, you know, whatever span of my career, you know, 20 plus years, 25 years, whatever it was. And realising that a lot of what was happening today is the same stuff that I would have experienced when I was 25. You know, like, it is changing, it is improving. Absolutely. Things are getting better in terms of gender equity and yet the progress is incredibly slow. And some of the stories that we hear, I mean, a lot of our clients are in, you know, what are traditionally very male dominated industries, things like mining and energy and. Yeah, to some of the stories that we're hearing about what it's like to be a woman or a woman leader in those environments is, yeah, it's pretty bad still, you know, and so I think that just that all sort of came together for me to say, you know, the people that I think can make a big difference that haven't had a shot to make a big difference. If we're looking at just population numbers, women being 50% of the population, just over, it's, it's women. Like, let's give women a chance here to lead and see what difference that makes. I'm not saying every woman Who's a leader is going to be human centric and values based. We know that's not true. Right. It's an unrealistic standard. Not every woman is going to be great. But it's an experiment that hasn't really been tried at scale.

Sadaf Beynon [15:58 - 15:59]: Yeah, right.

Belinda Clemmensen [15:59 - 16:15]: You look at the world, you look at corporations, you look at government, we don't have gender parity anywhere in leadership. And I'm not even saying we need a matriarchy. I'm just saying let's try equality and see what changes in the world. If we tried that and I think things would change.

Sadaf Beynon [16:15 - 16:23]: What do you think are some of the unique challenges then that women in leadership or women in the workplace face?

Belinda Clemmensen [16:23 - 16:54]: Yeah, I mean, I think we've got, we've got a lot of history to overcome. You know, I mentioned mining as one of the industries in Canada. Women weren't even allowed to go underground in mines until I think it's the 70s or the 80s, 1970s, 1980s. Right. So there's this huge history of us not being there for one thing at all. Right. In a lot of places. And then once we are there, being very sort of segregated into certain kinds of jobs and certain kinds of roles.

Sadaf Beynon [16:54 - 16:54]: Yeah.

Belinda Clemmensen [16:55 - 19:05]: And so now we're trying to open that up and say, no, we, we can actually do any of the rules. Right. We can, we can be side by side in any of these places. And so I, I think, you know, if we put it in historical context, we're still making up for a lot of history where we weren't included. And we're trying to now expand the systems and structures of workplaces to make them more inclusive for women. But a lot of cases, what's happened, the initial movement there was really about, okay, we'll let you in, but you have to conform and you have to do everything the way we've done it. Right. And even then you probably won't do it as well, you won't get as paid as much, et cetera. But, you know, be like us and we'll let you stay. And now I think we're entering a time when women and other equity deserving groups are saying, not only do I want to be here, but I want to be here in a system that actually fits me a lot better than this one, you know, and so now we're pushing against the systems and structures, which is bigger change, structural change, and we're saying, hey, hang on a second, we're. The workplace is not really built in a way that is inherently inclusive. Yeah, right. It's not built in a way that is gender inclusive. We know this for sure. Right. Because it's built. It was built historically for a time when only men were included anyway. And all men had some kind of external supports in their lives. Right. Wives, mothers, sisters, housekeepers, whatever. And so the workforce of today looks nothing like that. It doesn't look like that for women and it never has. But it also doesn't look like that for men anymore. And so the system's built for a time and a. And a workforce that just is really outdated, you know, and there's so much friction now between these things. And I think that's some of the discomfort that we're feeling is like we're pushing on this thing and the status quo is pushing back because change is hard and because those systems benefit certain people disproportionately more than they benefit others. Right. And often those are the people who make decisions.

Sadaf Beynon [19:06 - 19:14]: Yeah. So how do you think this affects the working women who also have families and homes?

Belinda Clemmensen [19:15 - 20:02]: Huge. I mean, you know, we talk about the gender pay gap. A lot of people have said it's not necessarily even a gender pay gap. In some ways it's a motherhood gap. It's a motherhood penalty. Right. So. And I think I'm using motherhood here not just as women who have children, but also women who have a caregiving role outside of their work, people who do that, that caregiving work. And so, yeah, the workplace is not set up for that. Right. In any way. It's not tolerant of. Certainly doesn't encourage it. You know, in places like Canada, we're really lucky that we've got parental leaves. You know, and lots of other jurisdictions around the world, we've got good, strong parental leaves, but in other places they don't.

Sadaf Beynon [20:02 - 20:03]: Don't exist.

Belinda Clemmensen [20:03 - 21:12]: Yeah, don't exist. And, you know, I don't want to. I hate to sort of go into this and boil it down to a reproductive conversation because obviously women are so much more than that. But the reality is our reproductive choices have a huge impact on all of our other choices, economic choices, career choices, etc. Etc. And so wherever there is a threat to reproductive sovereignty, I think there's also a huge threat to women in the workforce. All of these things are sort of interconnected. Right. How are we. How are we managing these things as a society? What expectations do we have for workplaces? Even this, you know, this thing about pushback on flexible work after, you know, post pandemic, this idea of, like, everyone has to come back and work in the office again, there are other like, are we really that uncreative? So it's like, okay, so before the pandemic was like, everyone had to be in the office. And then we have a pandemic and it's like, oh, actually people can be productive if they're not in the office. And now it's like, okay, so we're not in a pandemic, so let's just go back to the way we were before.

Sadaf Beynon [21:12 - 21:13]: We always were.

Belinda Clemmensen [21:13 - 22:20]: Yeah, I mean, there's got to be other ways, you know, if, if having collaboration is important, if having even face to face time is important, there's got to be ways to do that that are more creative than everybody must be here five days a week, you know, which is a huge burden on women who bear the brunt. Still, two thirds of domestic labour, you know, two thirds more of the domestic labour is done by women. So yeah, I mean, let's be honest. The ability to work from home, get your kids to school, do a load of laundry at lunch, that's real, you know, and we've always been dismissive of that kind of domestic labour because historically it's been done by women and anything that was done by women was devalued. Right. Historically unpaid or when it was considered paid labour. Those are some of the most low paying jobs in our society. Right. Domestic work, caregiving work, education, early childhood education, all of that stuff. Super low paying.

Sadaf Beynon [22:20 - 22:42]: Belinda, you mentioned when you were talking about growing up, your parents are both entrepreneurs and so you kind of grew up in that environment. You described yourself as someone who doesn't fit into the status quo. Curious challenges, assumptions, analytical. When you are helping other women in leadership, do you find yourself drawn to the same type of personality as. As yourself?

Belinda Clemmensen [22:43 - 23:01]: That is such an interesting question. You know, when I started the Women's Leadership Intensive, I. I think our tagline was something like visionary leadership for women. And I think because the idea of being visionary really appealed to me, I made the assumption that everybody wants to be visionary, don't they?

Sadaf Beynon [23:01 - 23:01]: Yeah.

Belinda Clemmensen [23:02 - 23:35]: And what I learned in the first few years was like, no, not everybody wants to be visionary. People want different things. And so for me, part of my learning curve, I think, has been learning how to support women to go where they want to go, not where I think anyone should go. Right. So if you don't, if visionary is not part of your, you know, direction, and your direction is something else, great, let's help you get there. Right. In the most authentic, values aligned way possible for you.

Sadaf Beynon [23:36 - 23:45]: Yeah. Was there any particular Time that you can, that you can recall where it suddenly like had this light bulb moment. Yeah.

Belinda Clemmensen [23:45 - 24:39]: I think it might have been like after two years of running our intensive programme. So we run a year long programme that's kind of our cornerstone programme that we do every year. It's really powerful. We're just starting up this year's cohort, which is always exciting, you know, the new group. And I think it was in the, in the second year and I think it was just this realisation that when I would talk about the visionary stuff, the stuff that jazzes me up, like people's eyes would glaze over to a certain extent. Right. And then when I talked about other stuff or when we talked about other stuff, people would come to life. And for me it was like noticing this energy shift. Right. And that my expectation of. Or that. Yeah. This assumption that I'd made. Right. That, oh, I want to change the world. Doesn't everybody? And the reality is some people, probably not really, it's not a driving force for them the way it is a driving force for me.

Sadaf Beynon [24:39 - 24:40]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Belinda Clemmensen [24:40 - 24:45]: And that doesn't make them not leaders. It just, you know, they're leading to somewhere different in a different way.

Sadaf Beynon [24:45 - 24:55]: Yeah. I mean, I could be wrong, so correct me, but I think what I'm hearing you say is that leading people is not about taking them somewhere, but it's shaping them.

Belinda Clemmensen [24:55 - 24:55]: Right.

Sadaf Beynon [24:55 - 25:02]: So if you're meeting them where they're at, you're able to shape what their future or where they want to go.

Belinda Clemmensen [25:02 - 25:16]: That's it. I mean, and, and really we've sort of, you know, the things that we talk about now is like leadership being fundamentally an inside job. And it's about you leading as you. That's really the work we do. Right. How do we help you lead as you.

Sadaf Beynon [25:16 - 25:30]: Right. Do you go into workplaces and give your programme your cohort or do. Do people come to you? Do you know, like. Like, is it an institutional type of.

Belinda Clemmensen [25:30 - 28:01]: A. Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I mean, the way that we run the intensive, again, this is probably not the best model in terms of business model, because open enrollment is a hard go. Anyone who's done it as an entrepreneur will tell you that, you know, this is a hard way to build a cohort or a programme or whatever. Um, but what we love about having it be an open enrollment programme is that we get a diversity of industries, sectors, levels, et cetera. And so this learning community, the byproduct of that diversity, means that everybody's walking away with a lot more from one another than we could otherwise get. And so that has to me become such an invaluable component of it. And not to say that you wouldn't have a certain amount of diversity if you had a group all from one company, for example. Right. But there tends to be this sort of company culture that gets ingrained in people's thinking. Right. It's like, I won't think about that because we don't really do, we don't really think that way here, you know, and people get a bit boxed in. Whereas if we're sitting in a room full of people from all different industries, all different sectors, I've got somebody from, you know, from banking talking to somebody from mining talking to somebody, from energy talking to somebody from pharma or whatever. Like they're, they're blowing each other's minds, right? And really expanding the perspective. And so that's why we keep it as an open enrollment programme. We have lots of organisations who send women every year and that's really the way to start making this difference, actually. And you know, it's, it's not about having one or two women come, it's about starting to create a culture of women who are thinking this way. And by the way, what we teach, I would teach the same thing to male leaders, right. Values based, human centric lead. As yourself. Yeah, I would teach the same thing. But there is something about having a women only cohort and, and we do mix gender cohorts as well. But having a women only cohort is nice because if you are often the only woman in the room or a minority in the room, or treated as a minority, even if you're not a minority in terms of numbers, then there's a whole layer of work that we can just like peel off and not have to do. Right. A woman can say something and she doesn't have to defend it, she doesn't have to explain it, she's not going to get gaslit for it. She's in a room where people are going to go. Yep, I get that. I can see how that happens, you know, and it's just a relief. Yeah, yeah.

Sadaf Beynon [28:02 - 28:03]: Freedom to talk and share.

Belinda Clemmensen [28:03 - 28:04]: Exactly.

Sadaf Beynon [28:04 - 28:12]: So what are some of the other systemic challenges then that you find when you are talking to these women? You talked about culture being one of them.

Belinda Clemmensen [28:12 - 29:37]: Yeah, I think culture is huge culture history. I think we're experiencing an interesting one right now, current day, which is DEI pushback. You know, I think I've been reflecting a lot about this. It's sort of like, am I going to not have a job because of DEI pushback? You know, And I think what's happening is this like DEI blew up big time, right. Over the last 8ish years. Right. We had the blow. You know, MeToo movement blew up even though it already existed, obviously. Black Lives Matter blew up even though it already existed. Right. But just these things had this huge, the conditions were all there, Right. It was a perfect storm for these things to blow up. Pandemic, social media, all those things. And so I think it just went everybody's radar. It, it blew up really fast. And whenever that happens, some of it's going to be done really well and some of it's not this rapid expansion into a, into a domain that previously was probably underserved. Right. And, and not paid a lot of attention to or maybe not paid enough attention to. And so I think where we're at now is that some of the pushback is because all of that happened to really fast and for the, for the places where it did damage instead of good. Right. Did more harm than good, then it's made people pretty gun shy about it. And now we've got, you know, political climate, obviously that's giving people a lot of permission.

Sadaf Beynon [29:37 - 29:38]: Yeah.

Belinda Clemmensen [29:38 - 29:46]: To divest. If, if they were waiting for a reason. They're waiting for permission, they got it, you got it.

Sadaf Beynon [29:46 - 29:46]: Yeah.

Belinda Clemmensen [29:48 - 31:54]: And so I'm, I'm feeling that from a lot of our clients as well. Right. This sort of like, are we still doing the right thing? What does doing the right thing mean? Do we still call it dei? Do we call it something else? There's, I think that's, that's part of the maturing process. I think we have to go through this because we have to figure out what are the, the, the positive high impact actions to be taking and what's the actual skill set required to have these conversations, you know, to be in those rooms, because those aren't easy and they have to be handled with nuance and thoughtfulness and respect. Are we applying intersectionality to everybody or just some people? You know, I think there's a lot of questions that, that we need to sort of grapple with right now. And, and the companies who are, who are quick to divest or the groups and organisations that are quick to divest probably were never all in anyway. And so at least we know. Yeah, you didn't, you weren't really invested. It wasn't really where you were ever going to go. So, okay, let's, let's part ways and you know, Spend time with people who are, you know, willing to sort of mature along with this and evolve with this. But I think that's. That is definitely causing some friction right now. I think there's been some, again, political climate to not only divest from dei, but also to be quite cruel and abusive along the way there. Right. So it's like now I can finally tell you that I actually think you're a diversity hire. You know, stuff like that. Whereas a year ago I wouldn't have felt comfortable being that saying that thing, now I'm comfortable to say it again. There's this sort of area of permission that's opened up that's. Yeah. Concerning.

Sadaf Beynon [31:54 - 32:06]: Do you find that gap is growing, that opening is growing? Or as you're saying, or is it that it's. It just takes some time to grapple with it and figure out where it's going to land when it's matured?

Belinda Clemmensen [32:07 - 32:39]: I can't. I. I don't think. I think it's too early to tell. You know, I would say of our clients now they're already sort of on this journey to a greater or lesser degree, but of our clients, I would say the majority of them are continuing to invest in dei. Whether they're going to keep calling it that or not, I don't know. But that doesn't matter to me. It's the work. Right. Of doing the work of inclusion and equity. But yeah, there's been a couple who've definitely signed off.

Sadaf Beynon [32:39 - 32:41]: Oh, really? Yeah.

Belinda Clemmensen [32:41 - 32:47]: Or really downshifted their investment. So kind of like I'm going to hedge my bets. I'm still going to do a little bit. So I don't look too bad.

Sadaf Beynon [32:47 - 32:48]: Yeah.

Belinda Clemmensen [32:48 - 32:55]: You know, to my stakeholders. But we're not going to put any real resources behind it because you don't have to anymore.

Sadaf Beynon [32:55 - 33:01]: So where do you think that comes from then? Is that the, the going back to the traditional expectations?

Belinda Clemmensen [33:01 - 36:13]: Yeah, I mean, I think it's. I think it's coming from a few places. I think it's coming from, as I said, like this broader social climate that we're in of very far right ideologies, which are definitely not on the side of equity and inclusion. I think it's the fact that people seeing some of their not excellent DEI experiences and extrapolating that, that means that DEI is not worthy. Right. As opposed to saying, like, just like any change initiative, we're gonna have roadblocks and challenges along the way and imperfections. I think it's also, if there's something I think we need to start doing again. It's. I have a 19 year old son and we have these social conversations about society and the world and everything. And, and one of the things he said in one of our recent conversations I thought was really interesting was he said the gender war is bull. Fill in the blank. And we, we got into a little bit and I've been thinking a lot about that since then, which is I think we need to find a way to come back together across all genders and, and remember our common ground, our humanity together. You know, and the reality is that most of us are not against each other. Right. And so this idea that. And I'm not. In no way does that say we shouldn't continue moving towards equity and justice and all of those things like that, that work absolutely continues and in no way is that slowed down by this idea. But if we don't find a way to integrate, you know, so it's almost like it's great that we've all had this conversation about identity and intersecting identities, but the end game of that was never to keep us in our spots, in our separate identities. The end game, in my opinion, was so that we would understand and appreciate each other more. And I think that's where the next sort of evolution of all this needs to go is like, okay, we're starting to understand this difference so important that we do because it is real and it defines our lives in so many ways. And how do we use that understanding to form better relationships with each other, to integrate together and to figure out, you know, I think what my son was trying to say with that statement of the gender war is bull is like his generation is looking at us going like, we have a climate crisis, we've got fascism, we've got war, we've got genocide. Like we need to come together, right. And, and really figure out what does it, what do. When we are saying we are human, what do we mean by that? Yeah, you know, because that is our common ground. And somehow, I don't know. Yeah, it feels like we've, we've gotten far afield from that in so many ways.

Sadaf Beynon [36:14 - 36:33]: Yeah, it is, it's really interesting actually. Like humans as a species, we are, we're really different from like, you know, animals. Like they have, they, they don't think about what they're going to do with their future, do they? And they don't think about all these other things. They just get on with it. Whereas we reinvent ourselves over and over and over again.

Belinda Clemmensen [36:34 - 36:34]: Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon [36:34 - 36:37]: Because of what's going on around us. Or in us.

Belinda Clemmensen [36:38 - 37:18]: Yeah. So I do think that's. That to me, is the next interesting place to go. When I think about the writing that I'm doing now, it's really all about that. It's about how do we, how do we mature and evolve. And the conversations that we've had so far are like absolutely necessary and foundational, but they're not the end game. Yeah, right. Like how do we keep going to use what's happened, these social changes, this really social revolution in some ways to get us to a better place, a more activated place so that, you know, so that I'm not over here wondering if my 19 year old is going to get drafted into a war someday in his lifetime. Yeah. You know.

Sadaf Beynon [37:19 - 37:32]: Yeah. Linda, your work sounds like it touches on deeply systemic and emotional challenges. So how do you personally recharge and stay resilient while still doing such impactful work?

Belinda Clemmensen [37:33 - 39:25]: That is a great question. The real answer is sometimes I don't. I think I, like many entrepreneurs, can push myself into the ground and it depends on what's happening. I've done a lot of reflection in the last month or so as the year turns over to the new year. And one of the things I'm really clear on is basically my fuel last year was cortisol and discipline. Like that's what I ran on. And there's a cost to that. You know, there's a physiological, mental, spiritual, emotional cost to that. And so, yeah, I think it's for me, you know, it's. It's remembering I have a body and that's. That my body has wisdom. And, you know, listening to it is important. Right. Being able to, even I have to relearn how to listen to it sometimes. Right. Because I've been overriding it and ignoring it for so long. And so, yeah, relearning how to listen to my body, what does it need? Whether that's rest, whether that's movement, sleep, you know, those kinds of things. I think that sensory experience coming back into that is so important for me for rejuvenation, writing, having good conversations, getting creative, you know, and in my world, that's. Yeah, that's writing, it's new programme design, it's new conversations with my clients. You know, my team is always like, our content's really good. We should just like stick with that content this year and just like do that. And then I'll have a conversation with a client and we'll come up with something totally new again, you know? Yes, I know how that happens and I love that. Like, that charges me up. I'm like, yes, let's build something new, because the world is changing. We gotta change too. Let's do it.

Sadaf Beynon [39:25 - 39:32]: Can you recharge from both, like, your. All your responsibilities at home and in your workplace at the same time?

Belinda Clemmensen [39:32 - 39:58]: That's a good question. I think so. I think so. I think it is, like, there's a place to come back home to yourself that transcends those boundaries. Right. Of work and home. Coming home to myself, for me, I think that also involves being in nature is a huge piece of that.

Sadaf Beynon [39:58 - 39:59]: Yeah.

Belinda Clemmensen [39:59 - 40:27]: There's also, I think this, you know, there's this interplay between seeing the big picture. Right. The world. Like, how overwhelming is that, especially right now, feels like. And then being able to come back in and say, what can I do? You know, what is my role here? Yeah. And that I can't solve it all. And I can. All I can do is, is trust and have faith that there are other people out there who are working on solving things too.

Sadaf Beynon [40:27 - 40:27]: Yeah.

Belinda Clemmensen [40:27 - 40:55]: You know, and I know that there are. And so I don't have line of sight to see how all that's going to come together, but there is a place where I have to have some faith in it, you know, And I do. I do. I think at my core, as much as I focus a lot of my time on these challenges and barriers and obstacles, at my core, I'm an optimist. I don't think I would be doing this work if I didn't believe that people wanted this, you know?

Sadaf Beynon [40:55 - 40:59]: Yeah. And I mean, listening to you speak, I think that's what drives you.

Belinda Clemmensen [40:59 - 41:12]: Yeah, it absolutely is. And. And it's like, so if people. If I believe that people want this, right. They want a more equitable world, a more just world, then the question for me is like, okay, how do I help? Right. What can I. What can I contribute to that?

Sadaf Beynon [41:12 - 41:17]: Where do you see growth, whether it's in the Women's Leadership Intensive or personally.

Belinda Clemmensen [41:18 - 41:59]: Yeah, I think, you know, as I mentioned, my dad's still working at 80, and I think this role model of how to. How to work. Yeah, I got a really good role model for that. I think I needed a new role model, and I have to be that role model for myself maybe, which is, you know, how do I work in a much more sustainable way so that I'm smelling the roses as I go, you know, literally and figuratively. Right. Like, so that I have the energy and the. The aliveness and the capacity to see the beauty in the world, have a Great conversation with somebody and not worry about, oh, I have all these other things to do, pay attention to my family and not be on my phone.

Sadaf Beynon [41:59 - 42:00]: Yeah.

Belinda Clemmensen [42:00 - 42:13]: You know, so it's. What is, what does that look like? What is sustainable and beautiful and productive living look like? That would be a new, a new learning journey for me, I think.

Sadaf Beynon [42:14 - 42:29]: Do you have, when you're, when you're trying to say, create new habits such as these, do you have a go to method or, you know, your. Maybe a formula that you decide that works well for you? Do you have something like that?

Belinda Clemmensen [42:30 - 43:02]: I'm not great with formulas and rules. I've always sort of had an internal rebel that's just like, no, I won't do it. So a reflection I think is probably my key tool. Right. Is trying to be attentive to what am I learning, what, what are my experiences teaching me, what am I feeling? So reflection and writing I think would probably be the things I do every day to make sure that I'm just staying connected.

Sadaf Beynon [43:02 - 43:08]: Right. It's that awareness, that self awareness then that drives the, the change in the habits.

Belinda Clemmensen [43:08 - 43:43]: Yeah, yeah. And letting myself, you know, I trust myself to be a disciplined person. If there's stuff that needs doing, I'll do it. It's going to happen. Yeah, I, I know that about myself now. So it's like, can I also trust myself that if that reflection leads me to a place that's less productive for a day or a week or a month or, I don't know, gosh, maybe longer. Can I trust that too? Yeah, that's a scarier, more interesting exploration.

Sadaf Beynon [43:43 - 43:49]: Yeah, it's definitely fascinating, isn't it? Great? Belinda, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

Belinda Clemmensen [43:49 - 43:51]: Thank you. Thanks for this great conversation.

Sadaf Beynon [43:52 - 43:54]: No, you're welcome. So how do people reach out to you?

Belinda Clemmensen [43:55 - 44:25]: Yeah, I would say probably the best way is through womensleadershipintensive.ca and there's a contact page on there and that contact page actually just comes directly to me. We're a small organisation, we're very relationship focused. So yeah, it's just a way to connect directly with me if there's conversations you want to have or if there's things happening in your organisation or with you as a leader or as a woman leader. Yeah, that's, that's what I do.

Sadaf Beynon [44:25 - 44:37]: Awesome, thank you. So we will link to your info in the show notes and they'll be found on pushtobemore.com for those listening. Belinda, again, thank you so much for your time. It's been a real privilege.

Belinda Clemmensen [44:38 - 44:38]: Thank you.

Sadaf Beynon [44:39 - 45:17]: Well, that's a wrap on another great conversation. A massive thanks to Belinda for joining us and sharing a part of her inspiring journey. For transcript or show notes, do swing by our website pushtobemore.com and a big thanks to today's sponsor, Podjunction, for all you change makers out there contemplating podcasting as your new vehicle of expression and connection. Definitely connect with us at podjunction.com don't forget to follow the show wherever you get your podcasts, because we've got more conversations coming up and we don't want you to miss any of them. So from Belinda and from me, thanks for joining in. Have an awesome week and we'll catch you next time. Bye for now.