Unlocking Life’s Richness | Matthew Brackett

Matt E: Well, hello and welcome to Push To Be More. I'm your host, Matt Edmundson, and this podcast, oh yes, we dive deep into the exploration of what really makes life life. And joining me today, I have an exciting guest, Mr. Matthew Brackett from Brackett Alliance. We're going to be diving into his unique life experiences, the hurdles he has had to push through, the way he recharges his batteries, and the steps he's taking to be more .

Ah yes, looking forward to this one now, don't forget, you can find all the detailed show notes and transcripts of our conversation over at pushtobemore. com and whilst you're there, why not sign up for our weekly newsletter, each week we will send you all of the show's insights, links and goodies directly to your inbox, absolutely.

free, which is brilliant. Now, this episode is proudly [00:01:00] powered. I love that phrase. Proudly powered by Aurion Media, the magic behind the scenes that lets entrepreneurs and business leaders like you and me amplify our voices by hosting our own podcast. But you might be thinking, Why on earth would I want to do that?

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com, that's a u r i o n media. com, and of course, the link will be in the show notes. So, that is today's show sponsor, Aurion Media. Let's talk about today's guest. With a rich 30 year voyage in personal, professional, and intercultural leadership development, Matthew is an executive coach and so much more.

Imagine him, as you will, as a human Swiss army knife. being the go to consultant, coach and confidant for high performing leaders, aiding [00:03:00] them to balance personal and professional realms, thereby enhancing their leadership, love and life. Also as a fervent consultant, educator and speaker, Matthew delves into the human essence in varying managerial scenarios, making waves in personal, professional, intercultural and Organizational domains, which all sounds very posh.

Uh, if I'm honest with you, Matthew, welcome to the show. Great to have you on. Loved your bio.

Matthew: Thank you, Matt. That's a good version. I'm going to ask if you can send that to me because whoever did that, it's a much better version.

Matt E: Yeah.

Matthew: always, I have to say when I speak with someone with a good English and British accent, I always feel a bit smarter. So thank you for this.

Matt E: Yeah. I'm not sure you'll feel the same in about 40 minutes, Matthew. I'm not going to lie.

It is funny actually that there is this when certainly when you're in the States, there is a certain, I don't know, you just, you talk with an [00:04:00] English accent and it just. Things change, it just feels, whereas if I talk to people in England, obviously with my accent, it is, it's different when you're in the States, um, and I find it fascinating how accents from around the globe do impact us and do, uh, affect, you know, how we think and behave, right?

Matthew: I think your accent, it lifts people up. So thank you for that. At least Americans.

Matt E: bless you. So where's your accent from?

Matthew: Well, I have a strange accent because I'm from Boston, but I don't have the typical Boston accent. I don't know if you've ever been to Boston, but the

Matt E: I have, and I would not have said your accent was from Boston, I'm not going to lie.

Matthew: it's a bit aggressive and wild, right, they don't pronounce it as, right, so it's very open, they pack the car over there, right, and so, that's why I grew up in the Boston area. It's small town New England, the 10th of 13 children, but um, life brought me to many different countries. And so through, by speaking other languages, speaking [00:05:00] Spanish and Italian, I lived in Ireland for five years.

I developed a strange accent. And so I always had, whenever I speak in public, I have to introduce, I have to explain my background because otherwise people spend the whole, whether it be a conference, whatever it is, trying to figure out where I'm from.

Matt E: yeah, yeah, that's interesting. I did hear a bit of the Irish Twain then, as well.

Matthew: It comes up a little bit here and there.

Matt E: Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it? I see, I lived, um, I've lived, uh, in various places, Matthew, over the years. I live predominantly in the UK, but I've also, I did live in North Carolina for a little while. And so every now and again, there are certain words which I will say.

That just instantly take me back there, you know? And, and so that twang then, because that sort of southern draw comes out a little bit, um, it's quite fascinating, isn't it? How you pick up these little bits from, from different parts of the world.

Matthew: It is. And what part of North Carolina are you in?

Matt E: Uh, place called Rockwall, which is about an hour north of Charlotte. It's, um, [00:06:00] near a town called Salisbury. And uh, yeah, lovely little place.

Matthew: Excellent. I live, I live in North Carolina, but more towards the water for three years when I was serving in the Marine, with the Navy, in the Navy with the Marine Corps.

Matt E: Yeah.

Matthew: So there's a large Marine Corps base on

Matt E: There is, there is, yeah, yeah. Actually, North Carolina, Fayetteville, North Carolina, all those kind of places, there's all sorts of stuff going on, isn't there? So, uh, yeah, yeah, amazing, really. So, right, we've picked up a few things already. You were 10 of 13 children and you were in the military. Um, and you've practically lived in most places in the known world.

Uh, so we're not quite sure how to identify you with your accent.

Matthew: Right. There we go. Matt.

Matt E: Brilliant. Brilliant. So let's get started because there's a whole bunch of stuff, Matthew, I want to get into all of which we've, I mean, some of them we've just talked about. So let me start by, uh, asking you the question I like to ask all my guests, right? Do you, uh, sorry, I should have asked you this before we hit the record button.

Do you actually have your own podcast?

Matthew: know [00:07:00] what? I, it's launching today, actually. It's, it's a very recent endeavor, but it's with another, it's, um, but it's in Spanish.

Matt E: Okay.

Matthew: live presently in Mexico City, so a woman down here who is very much into education, things like that, and has quite the following, and she, we met, and she's like, I want to start a podcast, and I want you to do it with me, so that happened within the last two weeks, so we recorded some episodes, and it's launching today.

Matt E: Oh,

Matthew: it's called 7 Reasons Why, and it's in 7 Reasons Why in 17 Minutes, but it's in Espanol.

Matt E: seven reasons why. Uh, I don't speak Spanish. Uh, that might preclude me, but I would definitely check it out. Well, congratulations. I mean, this is awesome that today is the day you were launching your podcast. Uh, that was totally spontaneous and unplanned and I quite, I love that. Seven reasons why is a great podcast name as well, by the way.

Matthew: There you go. So, yeah, and she does most of the work, so I just have to show up for the recording.[00:08:00]

Matt E: They're the best kind of podcasts, I'm not going to lie. That's what I do. I just show up, have these conversations and everybody else deals with the whole fallout of it all over the place, which is quite nice. So, okay, well, seven reasons why. What's the podcast about?

Matthew: Really it's about, it's It's a very, it's brief, so it's very to the point, the seven reasons why that goes into any sort of life issue, um, human experience. So, you know, we talked about, first of all, why we're doing the podcast, but we talked about reasons why relationships work, seven reasons why young people can self destruct, seven reasons why leadership, um, why people are successful in leadership, seven reasons why they fail.

It's sort of, we're gonna, it's gonna be across the spectrum of whatever is part of the human experience.

Matt E: Oh wow, fantastic, fantastic. Um, so you've got this podcast, right? So here's the question. I'm now going to rephrase my question slightly. Uh, so you have your, your podcast, 7 [00:09:00] Reasons Why. If you could have anybody as a guest on your show? Matthew. Right. Um, that has had a big influence on you, either is currently with us or someone from the past.

Any anybody from the past. The only caveat is they've had to have a, had a big influence on your life. Who would you have as have on your show as a guest and why?

Matthew: Okay, well there's a few people that come to mind, and part of it, I got, I was inspired by your last episode, by the, the guest that you had, and she, she spoke about her dad, and I, uh, that made me think that I would have my, both my parents, because that's something that I wish I would have done, I discovered podcasting sort of after my parents passed,

Matt E: Right.

Matthew: and so it's, so they would have been in, and I'm sort of like, we, again, a lot of the siblings were like, we should have interviewed our parents, um, more, because they had, Much just to understand of parents of 13 children, they adopted two.

I said that they had the, they had the outsource to improve the quality. Right. And . And so they, [00:10:00] it's very generous people. A fascinating lifestyle. They grew up in, you know, in post-depression, America, um, one of 'em, daughter of immigrants. So it's. You know, there was a lot of things that I think we missed out on.

Another person would have been, um, Pope John Paul II, and I had a very close relationship with him and with his inner circles. Another fascinating one, by the way, hasn't someone that has influenced me as any sort of dictator to really, because I think, I think we, we miss that as a human, as humanity to kind of get into.

Why dictators behaved and did what they did, you know, whether it be a Stalin, whether it be a Mussolini, whether it be a Hitler or something like that. But one other fascinating one would be, and this is very much part of my story, is the founder, I was, so I was a priest, I was in ministry for 20 years. I was part of religious order, as they call it, you know, Jesuits, Franciscans, so I was part of religious order for 30 years.[00:11:00]

And it started, it's very fascinating, it was started by, by someone who was, who was a psychopath. And so the, Right,

Matt E: what you'd expect. I was not expecting that. Okay.

Matthew: discovered much later in his life and actually after he died where a lot of things came to light. So there was a lot of, you know, but anyways, there's a very toxic leader but at the same time very charismatic and it's interesting in the study of leadership how oftentimes charisma is very linked to toxicity in some leadership.

And so, it was amazing, you know, he started an organization that was one of the fastest growing organizations in the Catholic Church and Catholic history, and has done a lot of great work, great people involved, but at the same time had this dysfunction and depression about it. And that's sort of part of my story, also why I left.

But my [00:12:00] decision to become part of that was very influenced by him. By the way, he was originally from Mexico, built this global organization, and so I, and I think he developed these sort of personality disorders over time, which influenced his personal life and the way he led. So he'd be a fascinating, because he died, and then when a lot of, then a lot of the scandals and dysfunction and a lot of part of his life and a lot of his abusive life came to the surface, and we were left with a lot of questions and without the end.

There was sort of an extended answer to your question, but you made me think of

Matt E: Yeah. No, we can rock it. There's so much in all of that. First, let's talk about your, um, Let's talk about your mum and dad then. So your mum was the daughter of an immigrant, is that right? Did I hear that right?

Matthew: Italian immigrants. Yes.

Matt E: Okay. And so was your dad an American?

Matthew: Yes, they, and he goes back to the [00:13:00] Mayflower, so he will be part of the Mayflower Society.

Matt E: Fantastic.

Matthew: So it's very interesting, they're really back to England, you know, to the Puritans that left England. They spent a bit of a, a bit of a stint in Holland and then took the Mayflower over. So yeah, they will go back. That would be our roots on my dad's side.

Matt E: Wow.

Matthew: Not always well, not always well seen now in the American context, you know, with, with, with the way they look at, you know, what the Puritans and what the, everyone did to, when they came over to the States, whether it be Columbus or the other groups, you know, with the Indigenous people and all that. So it's, it used to be a lot of, you know, oh, the Mayflower and the Puritans, you know, Thanksgiving and all that.

But now there's, there's a lot of mixed opinions about, about the history behind that. But that's where I come from.

Matt E: Fantastic. So your mum's Italian, your dad, um, is from the Mayflower generation. How did, why Spanish? Why are you then doing podcasts in Spanish? I'd get it if it was Italian, but, uh, where, where, how, what's the Spanish link? Hmm.

Matthew: Well, because I [00:14:00] joined this religious order and I did a lot of work in Spanish over the years. I've been speaking Spanish since 94. I lived in Colombia for a few years, in Colombia, South America. I lived in Chile and now I'm in Mexico City. So I really, I love Latin America. I love the culture, the vibe, the people and the language.

So I'm very fluent and comfortable in Spanish.

Matt E: okay.

Matthew: down here, that's just the podcast just sort of came about. It wouldn't have been, it wasn't like something that I was thinking about. It happened within the last two weeks. I'll probably learn English at some point as well.

Matt E: Okay, okay. So the, the next person, um, that you had on your list, so you had your mum and dad, uh, sorry to hear that both of, of passed. I now, uh, I'm intrigued by the 13 kids because we had a guy on the podcast called Brett Curry, um, and Brett is an absolute legend.

If you get a chance to listen to his episode, do, he's such a great guy. And he and his [00:15:00] wife have eight kids, okay, and he is still, out of all the people that I know, he is the one with the most kids that I know, do you know what I mean, and could call up and go, hey Brett, how you doing? Um, but your mum and dad.

I've gone a whole step further, they've added a whole other five to the mix, uh, and went for thirteen kids. Were your, were your parents Catholic or did they just really want, like a, they just loved big family?

Matthew: Well, they're Catholic, yes, so I grew up in a very traditional Catholic household. I would say their openness to life, it was somewhat faith based, but it was also just what they believed in. They believed in their openness to life, and the beauty of life, and that however many children came our way. You know, my mother had a few miscarriages as well, but however, they were just very generous and they did a lot of what we would call pro life [00:16:00] work and helping family.

They believe very much in family as the foundation of society. And I actually had an interesting conversation with my dad as he, this was just a few days before he died. I was with him and taking care of him. He wasn't, didn't talk much, so, but he started to speak about, about his reflections as he was getting close to death, about the greatest impact, he said, the greatest impact that I can make in the world, and in the afterlife, in eternity, is through my children.

I will be able to live forever through my children. It's the greatest difference that I can make in the world. And I never really heard that perspective in that take.

Matt E: Wow. Which actually, um, if I think about, say, some of the passages in the Old Testament, Um, what your dad said is [00:17:00] sort of, is, is one of these sort of deeply profound sort of ancient pieces of wisdom, isn't it? Because a lot of it back then was around your kids and your, especially your firstborn and the inheritance you leave to them.

And that was very important in the community. And, uh, it's sort of very disparate now in today's society, which is an interesting problem in its own right. But I. It's a really interesting comment, isn't it? I remember buying my dad a gift a few years ago and it just said on there, you know, in a few years time or when I, you know, when I'm older, um, it won't be about the amount of hours I spent in the office.

It won't be about this. What will be important is that I was important in the life of a child. And, um, it's that kind of thing, isn't it, which I, having three of my own children, uh, which is definitely nothing on your parents, uh, jeez, uh, but it,

Matthew: You went for quality, not for quantity.

Matt E: sure, let's go with that. That [00:18:00] sounds like a great theory, um, but I think it's, it's, Having now been a father, I can, I, and hearing your dad say that, there's something here deep in your heart that resonates with that and goes, yes, I, I love that as a concept. I love that as an idea. Living that out, I think is an entirely different construct, right?

But the, the, the sentiment behind it, I think is, is deeply powerful.

Matthew: It is. Yes. I was really moved by that. I was driving him back from the hospital to home. And yeah, we had that unexpected conversation. It

Matt E: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew: you know, with capitalism and everything else and the fast paced governments do not facilitate, um, family life. And, uh, and I think that's, that's one of the deficiencies in, in, in government.

And so we make, we make family life very challenging, more challenging than it already is. We make having children and educate, we make it, and they make it very [00:19:00] expensive. And so, and then people, they have to make very difficult choices.

Matt E: Yeah, I, I, it's an interesting, again, without getting too political, uh, cause I, I definitely don't pretend to have all the answers. I was listening to an interview where, um, some city leaders, I think from the West Coast of America were chatting about what their city needed the most. So what was missing from their cities that if they had it would have the most impact?

I, that they reported back as best as I know, which I found, um, fascinating, Matthew, was they replied fathers. That was what our city needed the most. We needed fathers. And how absentee fatherism is a really big problem in Western culture right now, you know, and you, you only have to look at the stats of say the, the, the people in jail, how many of them have come from [00:20:00] households with absent fathers, right?

Um, and a lot of the, you know, a lot of the stuff, like, I'm not saying that fathers are the answer to everything because I'm not, I'm just saying that absent fathers, uh, is a, is a societal problem that we do need to be more aware of, I think.

Matthew: It is, yeah. I mean, there's a crisis in, in masculinity and validity, you know, masculinity, which then affects, you know, the crisis in, in fatherhood. It, there's a lot of different things that lead to that. And we're, we're not saying of course, that's not the only solution, but I think there's a lot of different pieces to the puzzle, and this is one of 'em, and it's an expression of sort of, of what we've been through as society.

Something has led to this and, and, and I'm not sure if we're always addressing it in the appropriate way. Yes, it is. It's, I hear it all the time. So there's a lot of research about it. So yes,

Matt E: that's interesting. A crisis of masculinity. Uh, there's so many ways we could take this conversation right now, uh, which I, I think is quite fascinating. Um, [00:21:00] but let's talk about you. So you were with the Catholic church, uh, for 20 years. Uh, you came from a Catholic family. You were in the Catholic church for 20 years.

You're no longer with. Um, we, let me put it this way, you're no longer a priest in the Catholic Church. Uh,

Matthew: that's

Matt E: be a,

Matthew: Yes, in the long and formal ministry. So it really was 30 years because there's 10 years of training and education, 20 years of active ministry, which brought me to different, a lot of different countries and fascinating, and then also part of that was as a chaplain in the Navy and as a staff, which is very, it's a unique position in the United States Armed Forces.

Matt E: yeah, no doubt, and you would have seen some incredible stuff. I have absolutely no doubt being a chaplain in the Navy.

Matthew: Mm hmm. Very, yes, one of the better decisions I made in life and, uh, one, it's a fascinating experience of just growth, of being able to serve those that serve in a very unique, uh, cultural context. Of the military and being, you know, very obviously it's a very young [00:22:00] population, uh, high, it's very intense ministry because you're dealing with very intense stuff all day because you're with, you know, I, I was, I worked at a base of 5,000 people, 5,000 men and women Marines and sailors, and I was a chaplain, so I was there for everyone.

And that's a lot of people, uh, class of humanity. And it was so beautiful, so beautiful to be able to impact, and part of all the reasons why I wanted to do it was, it was a, it was a, it's population I think is underserved

Matt E: mm hmm.

Matthew: and secondly, I wanted to do a very diversified ministry, and not only deal with Catholics that were sort of in the pews, as you would say, and the ones that come to, I wanted to go out to the fringes, go out and deal, and really serve, uh, Um, a lot of other populations and, and so military ministry and chaplaincy was a way to do that

Matt E: So how long were you in the military for?

Matthew: only three years.

Matt E: Right,

Matthew: And it was, you know, so I, it was also had to do with my bigger decision of stepping away [00:23:00] from, from formal ministry. And so it was, it was a hard decision to make 'cause I was really enjoying the, but I also knew that wasn't my place. And so, and I said, well, why continue to do it if I already have the answers that I've been looking for?

Matt E: yeah, no, fair. So if you don't mind me asking, why did you step away from, uh, the formal ministry?

What was that process?

Matthew: long process. There's a lot I could say here. I like to say that in life transitions, there's sort of three doors that lead to life transitions. One is our dreams.

Matt E: Mm hmm.

Matthew: Another one is love, and another door is pain, and I have to say that it was mostly the door of pain, of really it was sort of living, living in somewhat of a conflict with myself.

For a number of years, feeling like I had to put on this facade of living, you know, I love so many elements of ministry, but I [00:24:00] also felt that the lifestyle wasn't the right lifestyle for me. There was also organizational context and culture and mentality that I was sort of living in conflict with, and I could only.

Do that for, for so long without it taking a very, very significant emotional and mental toll on me, which it did. And so I got to the point where I, I had to kind of raise the white flag and put myself in a clinic for, for, you know, for, for a few months to get some real personal care. I was carrying around an internal crisis for a number of years, and I needed to deal with it in order to just live a, a more healthy and flourishing lifestyle.

Matt E: Mm.

Matthew: And part of that was then putting this decision on the table. So

Matt E: Wow. Wow. That, that, was that, let me not put words in your mouth, was that a difficult thing to do or was that an easy thing to do when you'd made the decision?

Matthew: very difficult,

Matt E: Mm.[00:25:00]

Matthew: very difficult, even no matter how clear it became, it never became an easy decision. There's many levels to it. And that's why I took time is really from sort of the first time I put this possibility on the table as something that I wanted to consider. Cause I was, I was resistant to even considering it for a number of years.

So I would say from First of all, considering this, maybe this isn't my place, you know, finally talking about it and to finally making the formal decision it was probably six years went by. So there was a lot of, um, and part of that was that year that I, the sabbatical year that I took off where I got a lot of professional care.

And just so I call that year the journey of coming home to myself. And I, so there's a lot, you know, theological, spiritual, emotional, Mental, social level. There's all these different things that I needed to process and integrate and reconcile. Um, because yes, it was, it's a hard decision because it affects so many elements of, of, of one's life.

And then again, it was also not [00:26:00] where I was for 30 years. And so I had to sort of deal with a lot of. And, again, just a lot of reconciling things, so that I was at a place of goodness and peace in making the decision. But humanly, it never became an easy decision, because it's, I also stepped away from a lot of security and safety, of what was known into the unknown.

Matt E: Yeah.

Matthew: And unlike other lifestyles, when you step away from ministry, you, even though those years all exist, but like, financially, they don't. It's not like you walk away with a pension or anything like

Matt E: Yeah.

Matthew: Financially and many other ways. You start from zero. But with this huge amount of experience, a life experience, which I want to continue to build on.

So, so it was hard, you know, it affects a lot of relationships. People are, you know, you're viewed in by, in different ways, by people in the church. Um, it affects family, you know, especially when it's a very faith-based family. Uh, it's hard, it's hard for [00:27:00] people to, to, to understand the decisions and to come around.

It all just takes time. Yeah.

Matt E: Yeah. No, I've no doubt it's, um Because it sounds like, uh, I mean, I, I haven't been a Catholic priest, so I, I have to be careful with what I say in a lot of ways, but, um, it sounds, I mean, when you're involved with something for 30 years, your identity is tied up into that, especially as something that is, um, like ministry, which is, it, it requires more of you than a lot of vocational jobs, right?

You, uh, there is the whole pastoral side, there's the giving, you know, you, the, You give a lot. Uh, I, you know, anybody that's in the sort of the ministry, the pastoral side of things, I think are amazing people because of, of what they do do. Um, So your identity is tied up a lot in this, so

Matthew: It's very much,

Matt E: the six years, um, on one hand sounds like a long time, and on another hand it doesn't, so I can see what you're saying, you know, and it's [00:28:00] not just financial, like you say, you're starting again from zero, I mean that's a practical one that we can all get our heads around I suppose, but it's, it's no longer, you know, Father Matthew, it's just Matthew Brackett, and there's this identity issue that, so how did you reconcile some of that?

Matthew: it's a huge identity, and identity is important for us as human beings across the board.

Matt E: Mm,

Matthew: And I, and I think it's a, it's a point that, that people struggle with in many paths of life, right? Even, you know, women with profession, with motherhood, with a, and with a lot of men and just in the professional field, you know, and retiring, retirement becomes a huge topic, right?

Precisely because I, now in ministry, yes, it's much, it's called sort of all encompassing because it's it's it's It's not only a profession, it's a lifestyle, it's a vocation, what they would call like a calling. It involves your whole life, your psychology, your spirituality, your mentality. We could also kind of debate, you know, how healthy that is or not.

But yes, so it does. It was a whole thing, and that's why I call [00:29:00] that journey of my sabbatical year a journey of coming home to myself, of sort of rediscovering who is the Matthew that, that got lost along the way. And while I, you know, I was the priest, I was this and that, and I, I think I did a lot of that very well, but at the same time, I disconnected from so many elements of my humanity and from who I was, and that's not healthy for any human being to do. And sometimes, I'm, there's some lifestyles that can lead to that. In, in professional lifestyles, ministry, armed forces, whatever. It's a certain lifestyle that can lead to a disconnect from, from elements of who we are as human beings. And

Matt E: you don't mind me asking then, what part of you had you disconnected from that you needed to reconnect with the most?

Matthew: I think part of it was. Sort of, who am I, right? I think, you know, I'm, I would have grown up as a people pleaser, you know, making [00:30:00] people happy, serving as a way to do that. And so, sort of filling this void, and I realize over time that it's sort of like a drug that never satisfies. You're constantly trying to fill this void of being accepted, and you never get enough of it.

And so you're just going in, you know, and then, so there's, and I think the motives why I, I went into ministry probably weren't the best motives. It was sort of, part of it was I wanted to do something impactful, something important, something meaningful. You know, I grew up growing up in this, in an environment where we were, you know, the transcendence is very important.

I want to do something. Transcendence, something meaningful. So there was that motive, but also there was a motive, I think, of I also just wanted to get away from small town New England, from my family, because, you know, in large families there's different things, but part of it is you kind of feel like you're lost in the bunch, so I wanted to kind of find myself.

And do something meaningful. In [00:31:00] ministry, sort of, there was a way to do that.

Matt E: Yeah.

Matthew: It gives you a platform, it gives you a place where you can do it. So I don't think the motive's why, why I did it. So what did I disconnect from? I suppose I disconnected from a lot of the emotional side of, of me. Um, you know, and sort of the, the, the feelings, when there's a huge focus on spirituality and on, on living up to certain ideals, we can disconnect from a lot of the, uh, more of the human elements and emotional side of us, because in some faith environments, those could be considered, um, unhealthy or selfish or whatever it is, you know, we.

So there's sort of an over spiritualization, sublimination of, of, of these human elements, which isn't, isn't helpful. It's understandable work, why people do it, why it happens, but not always helped. So I would say that, um, I'm not sure if that answers your question, but that's the first thing that would come [00:32:00] to mind.

And I think it's also just the identity, this sort of living this, living up to expectations. and doing it for many years and I, you know, I was put in leadership roles from a very young age and so that puts extra pressure on you to perform at a high level and to live up to these expectations as you mentor others who are, you know, who are following the same path.

Again, it's so many beautiful memories, some I want to, but I, but I think that also led to a sort of comfort in not connecting with myself and not dealing with my deeper self.

Matt E: That's such a powerful phrase. A comfort in not connecting with myself. It's, um, I'm writing that down. Uh, I will, I will let that, uh, ruminate for a little while. A comfort in not connecting with myself.

Matthew: let me say that I come across that a lot. I mean, I came across that a lot in the military where And I come across it as a lot of professionals because we, we want to be there for others, so many [00:33:00] people, you know, but oftentimes we have a hard time being there for ourselves.

Matt E: Mmm.

Matthew: Because facing ourselves in the mirror can be very discomforting.

And when we do so with great honesty, right? And I think, didn't Michael Jackson have a song about the man in the mirror?

Matt E: Yeah.

Matthew: Right. And so, so again, that's

Matt E: Why do you think that is? Why do you think it's very discomforting to face ourselves when we do it with honesty?

Matthew: because we, we have to deal with some things that we don't like about ourselves and we have to name them, claim them as I would call and reframe them and, and maybe di deal with some of the, the. You know, there can be some shame linked to those things, there can be some guilt linked to those things, and maybe there's things just from our past.

I often say that we, there's certain things, whether [00:34:00] they be elements that we don't like about ourselves, or experiences or emotions that we prefer to put into the, into like a little closet or cupboard, hoping that they will disappear in the darkness. And

Matt E: Mmm.

Matthew: some things that when we put them into darkness, they grow.

And then they begin to invade our life, very, in a very subtle way. And then from subtle, then it turns into more obvious ways. And that's my own personal experience and from many people that I've worked with over the years. And it's also given me, it's given me just a window into so thousands of lives.

Matt E: Yeah.

Matthew: I've been able to walk on sacred ground of people's lives for so many years, I consider myself very privileged and fortunate. But going back to your question, I think it's that, there's discomfort of dealing with the truth of ourselves, because there's a beautiful, there's truth that's very attractive about us as human beings, but there's also truth that is very [00:35:00] And that, that we don't like, because whether we call it ugly, whether we call it discomforting, whether we call it painful, whether we call it, um, disordered, something, or brokenness.

I like to talk about the beauty of brokenness as human beings. There's just something, and so the less time that we pay attention to that, oftentimes the more, the more at peace we seem to, to feel, until, until we're no longer at peace.

Matt E: Until it's too late. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Until the whole thing's blown up. So, how long have you been out of ministry now?

Matthew: Formally, the two and a half years.

Matt E: So, you leave the, the, the, the ministry with all of these questions which you've, you've been working through, um, and you finally make the decision to, uh, leave the ministry. What happened then? What, what did you sort of go into?

Matthew: So as I was making these decisions, I was also preparing for my next, you know, I'd [00:36:00] already done my coaching certification a few years back and finishing active duty and ministry. I started a master's program at Penn State University in the psychology of leadership. And, and I started my business, my practice, which is in a, you know, it's sort of, and it takes time, as you well know, to clarify.

Uh, what my business practice is

Matt E: Yeah.

Matthew: constantly evolving. So that's, that's, so I step right in and I just remember those first few days were very difficult because again, it all happened, it didn't happen quickly, but it all happened in one week where all of a sudden I was like, I'm letting go, even though I knew why I was doing it, but I was letting go of all my securities and safety nets.

And it's now it's only me and, and there's a vision that I have and I know why I've done it, but holy smokes. And the whole thing about identity again, even though I'd done a lot of work on that, it's like, well now, who am I? And I [00:37:00] have to, professionally, I have to redesign myself.

And so I go into what I would call a holistic leadership services. Because one is how I lead myself, how I lead in my intimate and inner circles, how I lead professionally, and then how I lead in organizational contexts.

Matt E: mm,

Matthew: And unlike what a lot of people in corporate world would think, you know, they think the people from ministry are like, you're not going to know anything about organizations.

But I was part of the largest global organizations, you know, whether it be the Catholic Church, whether it be the religious order that I was in, whether it be the Navy. So I learned how to navigate complex global organizations

Matt E: yeah, yeah,

Matthew: in a very good way, right? And in leadership, I am passionate about, first of all, I'm passionate about the human person.

I'm passionate about the beautiful complexities of the human person, but also, and thus about leadership, because leadership will always be part of our human experience.

Matt E: yeah,[00:38:00]

Matthew: And leadership, when done well in a wholesome and healthy way, is very life giving, whether it be in your personal life, in your intimate surroundings, or professionally.

When it isn't, when it is dysfunctional or unhealthy. It can be very destructive.

Matt E: both of which you've seen in the Catholic Church.

Matthew: Yes.

Matt E: Mm,

Matthew: And many very, very varying environments, but yes. And I think when it happens in family, when it happens in faith, it touches the deeper fibers of the human person.

Matt E: yeah, yeah, and fast, oh, Jesus. So how do you, oh, so many questions, I'm just trying to figure out, I'm kind of curious, right, because in what you, in what you're doing, Matthew, there's this element of spirituality. Now I, most guests who have been on the show would say that there is an element of spirituality in their lives, and I don't. not like we've talked about that 20th [00:39:00] degree. There's various things that we talked about. Um, you seem like you are very spiritually aware of who you are as a person and some of the stuff that you have had to face. Um, The Catholic Church, uh, has been an incredible force for good, but it's also been quite destructive in, in many ways, and we've seen that in the press.

You're in the middle of all of this, right? Um, so the guy that, you know, drew you into the order that you became a part of ends up, you know, a psychopath, I think was the word you used, um, and, uh, how did you, uh, How did you reconcile, or have you maybe, is a better question, have you reconciled that, that in this institution of faith, which is supposed to represent the goodness of God to men on earth, that these things, these things inevitably are going to happen because of, you know, very broken people.

Um, how did, how, how have you reconciled that?[00:40:00]

Matthew: I have, but I think I've been fortunate because I was on the inside. And so I've, I've sort of been able to, Reconcile, you sort of separate the divine right and the true and spiritual and goodness elements that we would link to the transcendent to God from the human element. So I can believe very much, let's just say I can believe very much in the church, but um, a sort of a great lack of confidence in, in criticism of the human element.

Matt E: Yeah.

Matthew: Now it's hard for human beings because. It's hard for us to sort of differentiate because when you're part of a, of any organization, it becomes you, it becomes very much part of who you are in your life and you sort of want to take everything right. And again, again, when I talk about faith and, and, and the dysfunction and and abuse and the faith element, it affects the deeper fibers because we expect [00:41:00] better and we expect more from organizations, the state that say that they stand for better and for more. And also because organizations are very linked to how we view God. Now, the very sad thing, Matt, that happens here is that, is that we get the opposite effect. In other words, people, when they go through the dysfunction or whatever it is, or abuse in a faith setting, forces them, in most cases, to reject not only the organization, but also God.

Matt E: Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew: Because they can feel that what happened to them, what they went through was in the name of God, when it's not necessarily the truth like that, it's not necessarily that, but that's, it's very understandable that that's how we experience it as human

Matt E: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew: And then that's the part of the tragedy is that, that many people walk away from something that in the end could be very life giving for them as far as the faith element, [00:42:00] but because of what the human element has done. So it's

Matt E: a very, very insightful answer, isn't it? And like you say, not always easy to separate, uh, you know, not always easy to separate in your mind the two things. Um, how, if I can maybe ask you this question, you, you obviously around in, in the. I've been in the ministry for 30 years. Do you still go to church?

Matthew: I do, yes,

Matt E: So you're still very much a committed, um, can I use the word member of the Catholic Church?

Matthew: yes, I would say, but slightly critical, right,

Matt E: I think

Matthew: I

Matt E: fair, that's most churchgoers, isn't it? Or it should be at least.

Matthew: constructively critical because I do care about the institution and about a lot of people in the institution. In fact, you know, I'm going to give a conference to priests over the next few days, um, because it just, it means a lot to me that we make the church that we make, and I don't know, I'll give conferences to any pastors, it's, we [00:43:00] need to make our faith organizations better. And when we look at society, you know, and there's a lot of, like, we go on a lot of tangents here, but when we look at the loneliness in society, the sort of, we've lost community, and part of that community that we've lost is also faith communities. And if we talk about the Catholic Church, it, it, any large organization is slow to adapt, right?

And the Catholic Church has been slow to, in the very fast times, the Church has remained, um, sort of, um, outdated. And, right, and, you know, and so, do I go to, I go to church? Yes. Now, do I walk out sometimes during the sermon and then walk back in after? Yes, I do that too. Right, because sometimes it just tests my patience too much, right?

As priests, we can do much better in the way we nourish our people and the way Catholic services are managed, you know, and if people aren't in the pews, it's, it's, it's understandable why. But oftentimes it has to do with [00:44:00] the human element. And I think that's I think that's a very unfortunate.

Matt E: So, bringing this back to leadership, as you were talking about leadership, you know, being life giving, um, you said that our religious communities need to do better to nourish our people better. That, um, if I, if I join the dots, in other words, the leadership in the church needs to do better to nourish people.

This is, nourishing is part of leadership, isn't it? Um, and caring for people and oversight and all that sort of stuff. So, I guess, if you could wave a magic wand, right, and fix three or four key issues, um, in the, I'm not going to just use the word Catholic Church because I don't want to pick on the Catholic Church.

I'm just going to use the word church. Um, but if you could, faith organizations, if you could, um, you know, we need to do better. The leadership in churches needs to do better. I guess my question is [00:45:00] how do we do better? What is sort of two or three things that immediately jump to your mind based on your experience?

Matthew: I would say, really, leadership training and education, because the pastors and religious leaders are trained in many ways, academically, theologically, spiritually, and all that has its place. But oftentimes, They're the way they lead and the way they wield power. 'cause leadership is always to power. Now, not necessarily, you know, just because you have a position of power doesn't mean that you're a leader.

But the fact is, is that you have and how. You use your power. And I have to say, you know, in my military chaplains, the Catholic, Catholic chaplains, we were highly respected by a lot of the other denominations because they know they understood the lifestyle of a Catholic priest and the education that [00:46:00] we go through much more rigorous training than many other religious leaders.

So, we're very respected in that regard. So, and you know, if I look at a lot of religious denominations and churches, there's a lot of people that are, are in a position, you know, as a pastor or whatever and preaching and more because of their charisma

Matt E: yes,

Matthew: than because of the, their art of using power in a positive way. So, I, in a lot of religious groups, I see extremism, right? And And the way they wield their power over people is, is, you know, power is a very sacred thing, and they, it's often used very irresponsibly,

Matt E: yeah,

Matthew: religious settings, because people, when they go to church, they become very vulnerable, and they, they will, they will drink whatever you give them,

Matt E: yeah,

Matthew: because they, there's a sort of [00:47:00] innocence, and a, and a faith, and they go, and so, if We're not feeding them the right stuff, then it's we're not nourishing them in a healthy way.

Matt E: so powerful. And actually that's, that's not just the church, that, that's business, uh, as well. You know, I, I can point the finger at a lot of business leaders and, uh, probably myself included, uh, who are in positions because of a certain type of charisma they've managed to, they, you know, they've managed to convince people to follow them, um, and there is a power that comes along with that. Um, I think greater responsibility should be placed on church leaders because I think they, they espouse a greater message for and for better expression, but I, I think any form of leadership, there is always the temptation to abuse power. Um, and I'm, I'm reminded who, I can't remember who wrote [00:48:00] the book.

Someone has given it to me recently and I really must read it, um, about servant leadership. Uh, and. Servant leadership strikes me as a sense of leadership that is in the opposite spirit to that.

Matthew: It is, yes. And that was developed by Richard Greenleaf and And who was a Christian, and so a very scripture based sort of leadership, and he said, you know, so he came up with this term, Servant Leadership, which is about, yes, serving, it's, power is about how we serve our people and grow our people, and make them better, so yes.

Matt E: Powerful stuff. So, uh, leadership and training. And obviously, uh, you had a lot of this as a Catholic priest, but would, I'm, I'm thinking, you know, I I'm, I've been in business 20, 30, I can't even remember Matthew if I'm honest with you for that many years. I've been in business a while. Um. Um, but there are people who will listen to the show who are new to business [00:49:00] or new to leadership positions, where, where would you recommend people go to, to get the training that you're talking about?

Matthew: But there's, really there's so much in the marketplace now, somewhat saturated with offers of coaching and leadership training, and so you have to have a sort of discerning spirit on what's good, because Because there's a crisis of authority and leadership, there's, the offer and demand has grown, and, and whenever there's a, an opportunity to make money, a lot of people jump at it.

And I often say that people in the coaching or self development world are great marketers, but might not be excellent at the services they offer. And I'm generalizing. So there, there's a lot of great stuff. So just a discerning heart in how you find that. But I, I am a firm believer in personal accompaniment, whether that be mentorship, coaching.

Matt E: Hmm.

Matthew: You know, I just, when I, you know, when I, when I do coaching and it forces you. Just slow down in life, [00:50:00] which is very hard for a high performing leader to do, or anyone, because it's, you don't have time.

Matt E: Hmm.

Matthew: When you have to slow down and pay attention to what's happening inside of you and what's happening outside of you, and that will always benefit you.

You will always gain something from that. It's a growth in self awareness. I often say that self awareness is one of the greatest leadership assets, but also the lack of one of the greatest leadership liabilities. It's sort of that blindness to ourselves.

Matt E: Yeah.

Matthew: And it goes back to things that I lived in my own personal life, right, but also what I dealt with many other people.

So coaching is very, you know, and then good leadership. I'm not a, you know, books are helpful, conferences are helpful, but they, they, you're not forced to exercise certain skills in that. You can read something, you can hear something that's nice, and then continue to live your life in the same way.

Matt E: Yeah.

Matthew: I'm not downplaying books or conferences, they all have their place.[00:51:00]

But I think um, education and training is also important in how we develop our leadership skills. A lot of it's just learning because people, we, we, the difficulties, you know, we're put into leadership roles. It happens in any organization really because it's the next, you know, the traditional hirings or promotion system.

Well, this is your next step. If you want to make more money and continue to grow the organization, well, this is your next step, but you might not be the right fit for that. You know, so I really think that we have to come up with other ways to promote our people, which doesn't mean that we're put in leadership roles, because they might not be of a good fit, they might not even want that, but that's the only option they have.

Matt E: Yeah. Yeah. There

was a lot of research done by Google on that, wasn't there? The, the whole, um, being promoted above your capability. Uh, and, um, finding a different way to promote staff and team, rather than just assuming that they need to go up to the next, you know, the next rung of the ladder includes a bit more leadership if that's not the way they're wired, it, [00:52:00] it actually can have an imploding effect.

Matthew: Exactly, yeah, you might have excellent at your technical skills, but that doesn't mean that you need to have a leadership role because of that, you know, just you flourish where you're at. Again, it's just really, it's more that very personal approach to, to all of our people.

Matt E: Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew: just, the way we accompany people.

You know, as they step into these roles, and I would say the military was very good about that, because whenever you stepped into higher ranks, you had to go to certain, um, mandatory training, education courses, and things like this.

Matt E: Yeah,

Matthew: So, and just putting that into the systems, I think, is very important. Now, it's because it requires time, it requires an investment, and so company, but in the end, in the long run, there's a huge payoff

Matt E: yeah,

Matthew: for this, but we often don't think about that.

You asked me another thing that I would change, or address in a religious organization, or any organization, is to also, um, [00:53:00] how we deal with people, the human element, whether it be professional organizations, whether it be faith, because this is sort of a contradiction, now let's just talk about faith organizations.

Where we, we stand for the dignity of the human person, and they, a lot of organization, religious faith groups or organizations also talk about, there's this, there's brokenness about the human element,

Matt E: yeah,

Matthew: but there's also, there can be a lot of judgment and very little compassion and mercy.

Matt E: yeah,

Matthew: And so you kind of force people in a very difficult position where they, again, where they're held to very high standards and where oftentimes they feel that their humanity is not seen

and considered. And that happens also in the educational space, you know, how are we just being, dealing with

Matt E: yeah,

Matthew: We have, we have positions, but [00:54:00] let's be people in our positions and deal with our people as people.

Matt E: yeah. It's a very easy said, Matthew. This is why we need help trying to figure out what that actually means. But you're right, I think, um, historically the certain elements of the church. I've been very good at trying to clean the fish before they catch it, for want of a better expression and it's um, it's that, that critical judgment which, which says you're not living this life which I think you need to live.

Change the way you live and then you can belong versus come and belong. And that might change how you behave if that makes sense, it's the, it's an interesting sort of way of thinking of it. You know what Matthew, I'm aware of time, right, I'm aware we have not done the question box, uh, but I genuinely don't think we need to, it's been fascinating talking to you.

Um, [00:55:00] no, let's do the question, let's close on the question, because why not, why not, we're here.

Matthew: We're here, let's do it.

Matt E: Let's do it.

So,

Matthew: we've gone on so much, we could have

Matt E: through here, oh yeah, we should do like a part 2, 3, 4, and 5, uh, so tell me when to stop, and wherever you stop, that's the question we're going to ask. Okay.

Matthew: we missed it.

Matt E: We got it right here. So this is the question.

What are the best things you owe your parents? Bringing it back to the start of the conversation.

Matthew: Going back to our parents. I owe them, I owe them a lot more gratitude and appreciation. I, I think I wasn't good about manifesting, expressing that in my life. And again, I could go on a tangent here about how death puts everything in perspective.

Matt E: Yeah, it's

Matthew: So, um, so, and I owe them for, you know, [00:56:00] for, I think, giving me a very, for inheriting a very generous and loving heart, and wanting to serve and do good, and also elements of me being a great connector and networker.

My mother was very good at that. So I would, that's, um, that's what I would owe them.

Matt E: powerful, isn't it, when you think about it. I think it's a very clever question. Um, you know, what do you, what, what are the best bits you owe your parents? Um, because I think it's easy to criticize our parents sometimes. I think it's easier to see what they did wrong. Because again, a bit like church leaders, I suppose, we have this.

Perception that parents and church leaders probably should live a more perfect life than they actually do, and they're not really human. Uh, when we discover our parents humanity, or the humanity of our political leaders or the religious leaders, it, we struggle with that, don't we? And it's, um, it's an interesting Question then to reframe that, which is, no, no, there are some good things you got from your parents.

What are they, do you think? [00:57:00] Um, that's a fascinating way of doing it.

Matthew: Yes, and we owe them our life. That's where we got our life.

Matt E: That's true.

Matthew: so much. I love that. It's parenting. But

Matt E: Well, so what does, um, uh, in the closing minutes, what does, what does the future look like for Matthew Brackett then? Uh, what's, what's, where, what, what are we deliberately growing into?

Matthew: You know, entrepreneurship has been very challenging, but I've been very intentional about it. I'm not sure if I have the entrepreneurial spirit, but I wanted to give it a try. So, I'm not sure, I, I'm also applying for jobs, but I want, um, as regards to my business, to continue to offer, um, really transformational, life giving coaching and mentorship and consulting to uh, to people of influence.

I don't even want to say leaders anymore, I just want to say people of influence, because really it's a many I do [00:58:00] a lot of work with couples as well and parents because those are people of great influence and how they influence each other and the family. And so there's that element, the personal element, and then the speaking.

I really want to have a lot of speaking engagements because that's something that I did a lot of and I miss that and it's a way to also to nourish, to nourish and impact lives in a big way. So that's, that's my hope is that that will continue to grow.

Matt E: well, fantastic. Well, let's hope so, sir. And if people want to find out more about you, if they want to connect, reach out to you, maybe even get you on board as a coach, because I think, just as an aside, coaching, if you're a leader and you don't have a leadership coach, can I please implore you to get one?

Um, just for the reasons that Matthew outlined. And also for me, there's the accountability aspect, you know. Um, these guys will hold you to task, which is not like, did you go through your to do list, but how did you treat people today? You know, those are the, I just think they're really important questions.

Um, [00:59:00] how are you doing? How's your mental wellbeing, et cetera. So do get yourself a good coach. That would be my, uh, I have great business co, uh, leadership coach, friendship coach. friend, mentor, life. I, he's just an absolute legend. And, and I, I can see the, I can't necessarily see the benefits every time we talk, but I can see the cumulative benefits of many years of being connected, if that makes

Matthew: Right. And then it's what we need. It's really a coach. It's not that a coach knows more. Sometimes they know more about a certain area, but it's really about facilitating the process. Facilitating the process of self discovery.

Matt E: Yeah.

Matthew: And, and anyone benefits from that when it's done in a proper way. So they can find me at bracketalliance.

com. They can find me under Matthew Brackett on Instagram, Matthew Brackett at LinkedIn, Matthew Brackett at Facebook, and all those different platforms, so reach out, definitely. And I have to say that a lot of my services, really I hone in on that, that intersection between the personal and professional.

[01:00:00] Um, that's why it's sort of a holistic approach. Um, if you don't want to do a lot of work personally and, and deep work, then I'm, I'm not your person. Okay? But my, my, my motto is, uh, lead better, love better, and live better.

Matt E: Yeah, very good. Top advice. Well, listen, Matthew, I genuinely loved, loved, loved this conversation. Uh, and it's good to talk about these things. And I, uh, I, I'm fascinated and drawn into your story, uh, and you know, where you're going with, with, with life really. And so, um, yeah, genuine, genuine pleasure to connect and thank you for coming on, on the podcast.

Matthew: very much. I look forward to part two. Thank you very much.

Matt E: Yeah, no doubt, no doubt. Now we will of course link to Matthew's info in the show notes which you can get along for free with a transcript at pushtobemore. com or if you signed up to the newsletter it will be coming straight to your [01:01:00] inbox. So that's a wrap on another invigorating conversation. A massive, huge round of applause.

In fact I have to do this now because I've got the the desk here. Yay! Thanks Matthew for shedding light. on your inspiring journey. And of course, a huge thanks to today's show sponsor, Aurion Media. For all you change makers out there contemplating podcasts, maybe you started a podcast today as well, just let me know.

Yes. Uh, then definitely connect with them at www. aurionmedia. org. Now remember, keep pushing to be more. Don't forget to follow the show wherever you get your podcasts from because we've got some more seriously compelling conversations up our sleeve and I don't want you to miss any of them. And in case no one has told you yet today, let me be the first to tell you, you are awesome.

Yes you are. Created awesome. It's just a burden you have to bear. Matthew's got to bear it. I've gotta bear it. You've gotta bear it as well. Oh yes. That's the way it is now. Push to [01:02:00] be More is brought to life by Oria Media. For transcripts and show notes, swing on by the website. Push to be more.com and big kudos to the team that makes this show possible, including the beautiful and talented Sadaf.

Beynon and Tanya Hutsuliak. And also shout out to Josh Edmundson. for the theme music. So, from Matthew and from me, thank you so much for joining in. Have an awesome week. I'll catch you on the flip side. Until then, keep pushing and bye for now.