Managing Stress and Handling Pressure | James Bargeron

Sadaf Beynon [0:14 - 2:15]: Hey there and welcome back to Push to Be More Podcast. I'm your host, Sadaf Beynon, and today we've got another great conversation about what it takes to make life work. As a regular to the show, you will have no doubt noticed that I am not Matt Edmundson. Don't worry, Matt hasn't gone anywhere. He's still here. Much part of the essence of Push to Be More podcast. You will be seeing more of me though, as I'm going to be hosting the show alongside him. Joining me today is our very special guest, James bargeron, and I'm really looking forward to hearing about his unique life experiences, his hurdles that he has had to push through, the ways he recharges his spirit, and what steps he's taking to be more. In other words, push to be more. This episode is brought to you by Podjunction, where we're all about helping businesses share their stories and build real connections through the power of podcasting. Being part of the team at Podjunction, I've seen firsthand how podcasting can be a real game changer for reaching people and for making a real impact through meaningful conversation. Now, I know a lot of you listening are leaders and entrepreneurs. And if you're curious about what podcasting can do for your business, or if you're wondering where to even start, head over to podjunction.com we'd love to help make the process clear and approachable for you. Podcasting offers a unique way to expand your reach and connect with your audience in ways you may not have considered. And honestly, it's way easier than you might think. So head over to podjunction.com and see what podcasting can do for you. And now meet James. James is a performance specialist and consultant who spent three decades as one of the world's leading negotiators in global oil transportation. He brokered deals and served as a trusted advisor to top oil companies, traders and shipping giants. But now he has swapped oil rigs for coaching gigs, using his vast experience and science based knowledge to help professionals excel under pressure. James, welcome to the show. How are you today?

James Bargeron [2:15 - 2:19]: I'm great. Thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here, Sadaf.

Sadaf Beynon [2:19 - 2:35]: Oh, thank you. The pleasure is all ours. Thank you, James. So James, since I am part of the Podjunction team, which is also the sponsor of this show, the first question I have for you is if you had your own podcast and could invite anybody to be your guest, who would you have on and why?

James Bargeron [2:38 - 3:09]: They talk about always taking the most difficult things first, and everything else is easier. I don't think you could have picked a more difficult question, to be honest with you, because there's literally dozens of people that could spring to mind. Funny enough, there's. There's one that springs to mind, which is Denzel Washington, which funny enough is. The connection is quite strange because he's in London at the moment, I think, for the release of Gladiator 2, which comes out on Friday.

Sadaf Beynon [3:09 - 3:10]: Yeah.

James Bargeron [3:10 - 4:13]: And he's being interviewed on for a radio show tomorrow, which is, in fact, the person that I ideally like to have as a guest, which is Chris Evans, the dj. And Chris was talking about this morning. They're going to be interviewing Denzel for the show. It's funny enough about the two of them. So Chris is the guy. And the reason for that being is I first started listening to him as a DJ by accident 30, 35 years ago when he first came down to London and he was working for Radio London. And I used to go to football on a Saturday and put the radio on, and they had this wacky guy on the radio, and he was doing all sorts of stuff, getting people famous, people's phone numbers up and ringing them up on. Live, on air. And I just thought, hang on a second. I've never heard anything like this. And it just appealed to my sense of humor and obviously a lot of other people.

Sadaf Beynon [4:13 - 4:14]: Yeah.

James Bargeron [4:14 - 5:43]: And so since then, I started following him, his journey, and I've seen him as a person grow. And it's amazing, though I'm not a dj, I know that the similarities between what he was doing and how he grew through the radio, the TV and stuff, and some of the challenges that he's faced. And I read a book of his my wife gave me about 13 years ago. And reading the book was. It just meant an awful lot because some of the things he wrote in there, you knew were raw and real. Some of the mistakes he'd made and the things he had done and his relationship with his first wife. Sorry, his second wife. His first wife was many, many years ago. His second wife. And how even though he got divorced, that he kept the relationship as friends. And there was things there that he just showed the real side of him as a person not everybody actually saw. And so I'd love to be able to sit down and talk to him about some of the questions and get him on the other side of the microphone, because he's very good on the side that he is interviewing other people. So it would. It would be nice to actually turn the tables and Find out and ask the questions that I suppose some people would like to know about some of his past to be honest with you. So Chris Evans.

Sadaf Beynon [5:44 - 5:49]: Yeah, no, that's, that is really interesting. I'm curious though, what kind of questions would you want to ask him?

James Bargeron [5:50 - 7:24]: Well, he's done some pretty crazy stuff and to be honest with you, I think we all have over the years and it would be nice to know a little bit more about what was the driver behind that besides alcohol because what was the drive to become successful? Was it the success? Was it because I know he's not in rock and roll but he's still in the music type industry so was it that he wanted to be famous from that side and what was the drivers that forced him to do certain things and he was telling stories like, you know, that he shouldn't be here and that's really what resonated with me at times. Some of the things you do to push to be number one was where he remembers he was trying to get into his flat in London and one of these old flats that had like the basement down there and he was climbing across the railing 1:00 in the morning because he didn't have any keys to try and get into a window when he was, you know, been out drinking for a 12 or 14 hour period and he realized the next day is hang on a second, I could have actually killed myself. But it's one of those sorts of situations which I suppose is funny at the time, it's amusing or amusing afterwards but the realities are as well. Why do we get ourselves in those sort of situations? And it's that type of thing that you can just think about hang on a second, I've done some pretty stupid things over the, over the years and we think they're fun at the time but maybe not so much afterwards.

Sadaf Beynon [7:24 - 7:44]: Yeah, no, I hear what you're saying and it is, you're right. It is interesting to be able to really well talk to, well in your case talk to someone like Chris Evans and really understand what makes him tick and what is it that really went on and to uncover some of that because you understand why they behave the way they do a lot more, don't you?

James Bargeron [7:45 - 8:41]: Yeah, you get an idea why some people do. But it would be nice to hear from them, to actually open up to share. Sometimes they don't want to share it, sometimes they don't always know, as I say, we sometimes we have these subconscious drivers. I know I did. And you're not always aware of them. You can get so many people asking the same question, why did you do that? And they just think, well, I don't actually know, I just did it. And they'll go and do it again, but they don't know why they do it and stuff. And so it's these subconscious drivers that push us to do things, which, from my discovery and studying over the last 10 years or so, has been that the subconscious is driving the majority of our day more than we actually are aware of. And that's why I'd like to sit down and ask those sorts of questions in a fun way. Because he's a fun guy, to be honest with you.

Sadaf Beynon [8:41 - 8:53]: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'd like to ask you those questions too. Yeah. To get and unwrap your story a bit more. So tell me, what is the defining challenge that you have faced?

James Bargeron [8:53 - 12:18]: Bit like the first question. They're tough. Is there a defining one? I think, to be honest with you, there are. There's more than one. When we evaluate the things, as I was just talking about, the subconscious things that has driven us to do certain things and to chase after certain ideals and dreams, I suppose, is the word that people use these days. But you don't always think of it as a dream. You just think of it, something you want to achieve that pushes you on. And there's been more than one challenge. I suppose the big challenge was the reality is to come to terms with growth, I suppose, is a challenge. You know, as a kid, we all think, okay, I want to go and do that. Or maybe we don't know what we want to do. And we set out in the world to go and achieve, get a job or do all the things that we told are the things that we got to do. College. And then, you know, if you go that route, get a job. But to what end? And then when we evaluate the situations, we sit back and go, well, why did I do that? Why did I do that? And sometimes it could be too challenging, that we've made mistakes along the way, but we did. We made the decisions and we took the actions we did at the time with the information that we had available. And sometimes we can beat ourselves up. So there's been plenty of situations where I know I've made mistakes. And then comes the blame, the shame. Why did I do that? I should have done this, and I shouldn't have done that. And there's been several challenges, several big ones. One was losing. I suppose the real big one at the time was losing my career. 30 years in the shipping industry that as A young kid, you, as I said, you go out into the world thinking, right, I'm going to do X, Y or Z. And mine was, I fell into the shipping world and I loved it. And I never thought I'd actually come out the way I did, but it was cut short after 30 years. And I thought, okay, I'll go through, do what everybody else does, is work hard, make money, become successful, retire, and then go off and enjoy the rest of your life. But in reality, it doesn't always happen that way with the pressure that's involved with the finance and everything else. So not everybody comes out unscathed. And that was. That was a pretty difficult, pretty difficult time to tell your family that the long career and the success and everything else that should have gone with it didn't materialize. Well, it did, but it didn't materialize the way I actually wanted in the end. And that was a. That was a pretty difficult, difficult challenge to, to get through. To be honest, doing something you love for so many years and then things not working out, that's. That's the real bitter, bitter thing. Because you wanted it to finish on. On a high, if you see what I mean.

Sadaf Beynon [12:18 - 12:18]: Yeah.

James Bargeron [12:19 - 12:26]: But when it's taken away from you like that, it's. You. It can, it can screw with what's between your ears.

Sadaf Beynon [12:27 - 12:32]: Yeah. If you're happy to share. James, can you tell us what led to that?

James Bargeron [12:34 - 14:03]: It's a difficult industry, to be honest with you. There was, as I say, so much pressure, and not everybody talks about the things that the. The culture. And don't get me wrong, the shipping industry is a fantastic industry. It's just that there are certain cultures and there are certain things that people do when they're under pressure, especially when you put a lot of money at stake. Decisions and integrity gets challenged, if you see what I mean. Because people do weird things when there's a lot of money at stake. So people change their minds, people say things and then do things. And don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to put myself out on a pedestal that I was whiter than white. I was part of the culture. To be successful, I to that pressure to be number one and to be ultra successful, because it was demanded not just by your competitors, your bosses, your colleagues, but yourself. That inner drive that, as I say, our subconscious mind that, oh, it's not a case of I want to win. It's a case of you have to win, you have to be successful. But also from your client's point of view, you've got very successful clients, they don't want to deal with people that aren't going to help them be successful. And so if you're not up there, then you're very quickly shown there's the door or rejected.

Sadaf Beynon [14:03 - 14:12]: Can you take us to that moment when. And share what went through your mind as the reality of having to start over kind of set in for you?

James Bargeron [14:15 - 15:39]: It wasn't an initial shock. I suppose it was a bit like if you've been in a. A car accident or something, is that the initial shock was, okay, what am I going to do? The thing was I just moved my family out to the States and getting the family ensconced and my daughter in school and these sorts of things. And that's a big move for anybody to move overseas and get your family. And for it to happen the way it did was something that took time to really settle in because then the eventualities of, okay, well, what am I going to do? I've just moved a family over, now I've got to move a family back or we're going to stay and these sorts of things. If it's just you, it's not so much a problem because, you know, you're a big boy, as you're told, you know, as of a young age. Oh, just get on with it, deal with stuff. You. I've been fired before. As I say, it's a difficult industry, but it's. When you have other people involved, your family, your kids, that's where the challenge is that how you're going to do things for the best, for them and them not to be affected. That's, that's the real. That was the real challenge, to be honest with you.

Sadaf Beynon [15:40 - 15:43]: So what did you do in that instance then? Did you move back?

James Bargeron [15:44 - 17:39]: We did eventually, yeah. My wife and my eldest daughter, sorry, youngest daughter, came back to the UK and we. And my, me and my eldest daughter stayed out until we could get ourselves sorted out and eventually got back to the uk. That was several months later. Not the end of the world, being separated. We'd been separated previously, as I say, when I moved out there. But it was just the way that your career comes to an end and you. I suppose, I suppose it is the ego, but then the ego controls an awful lot in our lives, is you. Do you really work for something for 30 years and look to be successful, you know, and it wasn't just a case of doing a 9 to 5. I was on call 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and I Put the business. That's probably the biggest mistake I ever made was I put the business before my family, thinking that I was doing the right thing. And so when you get that situation that you never anticipate, the shock comes later is, oh, hang on a second. And then as I say, when you've got your kids involved is, well, my career's gone. You're not going to be able to do the things that you wanted to do because you had plans and what you were looking. Yeah. As I say, you could be a big boy and go, okay, I'll get on with it. But it was more my family. How am I going to help them get through and do the things rather than it just be me. So that was the biggest challenge, really, really. Having the kids go through thinking, oh, everything's okay and make. And trying to protect them in a good way. Not wrap them in cotton wool, but protect them from the unnecessary situation that was going on and things that they didn't really need to know at that time.

Sadaf Beynon [17:40 - 18:14]: Yeah, no, it sounds difficult. I think working anywhere for 30 years. I mean, I haven't worked anywhere for 30 years, but I do know that if I've ever had to leave a job, you realize just how much of your identity that becomes, that role becomes. And it's interesting when you say you felt like you hadn't realized it, but you'd put your business before your family. And I think that happens naturally, doesn't it, over time and you don't realize it until you're in that situation.

James Bargeron [18:14 - 19:37]: Yeah, exactly. And that's the thing is a lot of people are in a similar sort of situation in this day and age, but they don't realize it. That's the thing. The demands that are on people, there's always demands on people in business. We understand that. But to what extent? And I think there's a lot more talk now, which is good, which is hopefully what we're doing here is forget to get people to realize, hang on a second, I'm doing that. Oh, you know, when guys come in from work or women come in from work, the high powered jobs they get in and you don't just switch off at 5, 30, 6, 30, whatever time you leave the office, when you have a commute or even if you, the commute is down the stairs these days, if you're in a role that's demanding and you've got a family and you're down there and your brain is still going over. You know, my wife used to say to me, are you really with Us because I, my, my eyes would be all over the place looking around the room when we're having dinner. When I got in at, you know, 8:00, 9:00 at night, even if the kids were up or they were in bed, it didn't make any difference. Is that sometimes there was that still disconnect because you're still attached to what you were doing during the day. That's so much of how much it had a, a draw and a demand on you.

Sadaf Beynon [19:37 - 20:07]: You were talking earlier about the culture of the, of the company that you used to work for. The industry perhaps is a better way to put it. Is there any connection between those kind of habits and maybe the leadership that you've observed there and this disconnect that we're talking about now? Is there any overlap between any of those things? Like does one feed into the other or are they com. In your mind, are they two completely separate issues?

James Bargeron [20:07 - 23:26]: The culture is industry wide. It's just that there are certain people and companies that have chosen to balk the trend and they're the guys that I would say are more successful, if you want to use that term. And, but success can be a very, very broad or a very fine definition. It just depends upon what people see as success. The idea for success for so many people was coming through that it's financial, that you're not in it just to do a 9 to 5. You know, you're in an industry that is known for high finance and so you're in it. And that culture is to breed winners purely. If you're not there to win, then you're going to get downtrodden really quickly. And as I say, there are certain people, companies that over the years have done things differently and become successful and not bought into necessarily all of those things that make those cultures, which is to win at all costs, the lack of integrity and these sorts of things and not caring about other people. And I've seen some terrific companies and people that have made those companies successful over the last 10, 15, 20 years that have done things they say differently because they haven't bought into those cultures and they care about people and they try and do things a little bit differently, which not everybody accepts. And that's part of the, the, the attraction, I suppose, which is, well, if you're going to do what everybody else is doing, then you're going to get the same results. And so it's great to see that others haven't because there's not everybody came through unscathed in the, in the industry, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to slate the industry. Totally. Don't get me wrong, it was a fantastic industry. But it's like any industry that there's going to be pockets. Unless you realize what the culture of it is, then you can't do anything about it. And not everybody's prepared to stand up and do something about it. Because when you, when you do, it's very easy to get pushed to the wayside, ignored, bypassed. When it comes down to what you're there for, which is to make money and these sorts of things if you don't toe the party line, as it were. So it can be, it can be a challenge in that respect. Did you face that in those 30 years? I think I faced everything sad, to be honest with you. Being fired for being crazy, being fired for being polite, which cost me an awful lot of money in one particular company. I started When I was 17, I co founded a another company with some other people in my early 20s and I gone through many different roles from as I say, the trainee through to a partner in a company through to director. So I've seen, I've seen quite a lot in those times in that, in that time I should say.

Sadaf Beynon [23:27 - 23:32]: Yeah, I can imagine, I can imagine. So what, so you're in coaching now?

James Bargeron [23:32 - 23:35]: Coaching and mentoring and speaking as well? Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon [23:35 - 23:38]: Okay, so tell us what, what took.

James Bargeron [23:38 - 28:23]: You to that A realization when I got out is going through a self evaluation is that why did certain things happen? And it's only when we look through and evaluate those things we realize is that it's not always everything outside some of the things. And I'm not going to go so far as to say every single thing like some people seem to say that everything happens in life because of you. There, there are some people out there that are just the way they are. But realizing that evaluating why things didn't work, why things worked out the way they did, and you have to start unpicking the things. And as I said, the. Ever since I was a kid, I've always been fascinated by sports and in particular what makes people tick. I could never understand why one person could succeed, another person couldn't. It wasn't just talent, it was something between their ears. But I, back then, people didn't really talk about personal development and the psychology of performance and these sorts of things. And it was only when I got out that I started to look at the situation and thought, well, I worked with some of the most successful companies in the world and I thought well, what made the difference? Why was that particular company. Why was that guy so good and what was he doing different? And I couldn't work it out, so I had to go and evaluate it and openly had to evaluate where I screwed up as well, you know, and it's a difficult thing to look in the mirror, to be honest with you, and start going through. And hang on a second. Joining the dots. And through doing that, I was asked to speak somewhere, and I thought, will you ask me to speak? So I spoke and I talked about something and I shared something, which I hadn't planned to. No, I was speaking on a stage. It wasn't one of these big stages where it all been planned. That was just an impromptu. And I shared something. And there was a lady that I noticed afterwards came over to me and spoke to me and said that. And she was in tears, and I didn't. So I thought, had I upset her? And she said, no, it's what you were talking about. And I didn't realize what I was talking about of how it was affecting some of the people in the audience, because I was just talking through different things. And it was through that somebody said to me, well, you should go and speak more about that. And I didn't feel comfortable because this was a closed environment, as it were. And it was only through that that I realized is that unpicking some of those things is the challenges we have is as guys. Guys don't want to open up. Guys don't want to speak about the challenges they have, especially in an open forum. It's too much of a challenge because we've been told we shouldn't, and it's just not a done thing. So I decided after evaluating some of the things is that I realized that in order to change, I had to find out how to change. I didn't know beforehand because we'd all just been conditioned as we were growing up to do certain things. And it was only when you started to say joining the dots that I had to go through. And coaching was completely new to me, absolutely new to me when I got out, and mentoring as well. So I found out that I'd been going through and learning some of the things that I shouldn't have been from people, and they didn't have my best interests at heart. And so then I had to go through and reevaluate. And that led me down to. That's why I was making those mistakes. That's why. And I could see it was something that was so needed, and I'd Love to have had the opportunity, you know, when I was 20 years of age, when I. My early years of being in shipping, it could have made a huge difference. And so now seeing that there are so many other people under extreme pressure, and pressure is the thing that causes so many problems in the world of business, in this dynamic and outside. I understand that it's not the stress, it's the pressure. It's the pressure that leads to the stress in most of the occasions and people not knowing how to handle it and dealing with all that was the thing that really led me down that path and to be in a position to talk about it from experience. And so that's what led me into getting into coaching and mentoring and speaking.

Sadaf Beynon [28:24 - 28:43]: That's fantastic. Thank you for sharing that. You mentioned self evaluation and awareness. That and joining the dots for yourself like that was part of your process, wasn't it? And I can imagine that in itself can be quite difficult and painful because you have to come to terms with your own shortfall, don't you?

James Bargeron [28:44 - 31:24]: Yeah. And, you know, as kids, we are, we're conditioned, I suppose that's the only word really. We're taught, not always how to think. We're taught what to think. And my parents are no different from a lot of other parents out there. They, they did the best with what they had at the time. And you go to school, you go through the curriculum and all these other things. So we learn all of those things, but we're not taught how to think. You know, we're slapped around the head. We're at school. I remember being told bargeron stop daydreaming and these sorts of things, it's wrong. But when you, when you look at it, the, that's where all the imagination comes from. Curiosity is through daydreaming and going out. And what happens if this. When kids are out and playing. And so when you stifle that, you, you stifle the opportunities for growth. So what happens is we end up just becoming a product of your environment, as it were. And yeah, that could be hard. That can be very hard because as a kid, all I wanted to do was like millions of other people was, oh, go out, talk, become successful, go out in the big wide world and make a success, get into a career, have a successful job and all these other things. And it's only when you go through and evaluate those things, as you were alluding to a moment ago, that you're standing in front of the mirror and the blame comes out. And these sorts of things when in Reality, our reaction is to blame. It is to be shamed, and it is to think, oh, hang on a second, I screwed up, you know, how useless I am and all these other things, which is why guys struggle with it all. Because we are supposed to be these super duper successful people and that's the way we condition. So when we face these challenges, we aren't easy on ourselves, we're hard on ourselves. And that is the big challenge is because our minds can't take it all the time if we keep berating ourselves. How are you supposed to really get better if the total time, all the time you're berating yourself and telling yourself you're useless because I didn't realize and so many other people don't, is you're doing that the whole time. Your subconscious is listening to that and it's only making it ten times worse. Rather than actually start working with your mind to improve things rather than, you know, no different than telling somebody else, you know, how, how crap they are.

Sadaf Beynon [31:25 - 31:58]: How do you break that cycle of blame and shame to the point? Because I guess you could go two ways, right? One, you could be, you blame yourself and there's shame and then you kind of be like, well, what's the point in trying? And you end up back in square one. But if you want growth and you want to use that challenge to actually push yourself, where does that blame shame cycle, how does that end? So that you can actually push, push yourself and not feel like you're stuck and not like in a stalemate kind of a situation. Does that make sense?

James Bargeron [31:58 - 34:56]: Sure. That's a great question and it's not an easy one to be honest with you, which is why it is such a challenge for people, especially guys. As I've mentioned earlier that women will, women will get together in groups and talk about these things. Guys, not so much so. And I don't want to go down the route of the challenges too in too much depth because this wasn't about purely about mental health. But it is because guys have got this challenge that we have to be super successful. We have to be this and that. And when we realize that, hang on a second, we're just human, that it is okay to make screw ups, we have to go through a lot of things that are counterintuitive things like forgiveness and forgiveness, self evaluation and peeling back, I suppose is the old cliche of, you know, the onion skin, as it were, of each layer of the dots we talked about. And in so doing it is a challenge because it is so difficult to realize, hang on a second. I've been conditioned for so many years to do and think a certain way for me to change that it's not normal, I. E. The brain or the subconscious doesn't think it's normal. It's not what it considers as the usual thing. And so it doesn't like it. And we're used to being hard on ourselves and telling ourselves, you know, are you screwed up? And these sorts of things and push through and you'll be okay with it. But the problem is we don't, because we're just going to keep making the same mistakes. And it's only when we evaluate those. Well, as I said a few months ago, why did I make that mistake? And when you actually become aware and understand it, it's only then you can do something about it. It's simple, but it's really not easy. And that's the challenge. Why so many people do struggle with it is that these years of conditioning, plus our environmental conditioning, when you go to work or in social circles, is that people think, say, do things that make you feel that I shouldn't be able to speak about it, and this sort of stuff. And so the more that we normalize situations where people can think, you know what? I screwed up, I really did screw up. What can I learn from it? And being able to talk about the situations, the easier it is. We're doing more of it, but not enough.

Sadaf Beynon [34:57 - 35:30]: You talk about this self evaluation, this, even forgiveness, even things like, well, I messed up here. Why did I mess up? How can I do things differently and not make that same mistake again? These kinds of things, are they something that can be taught, or is this something that you, from your experience? Is this something that people have to kind of go through themselves to get to that learning? Does that make sense?

James Bargeron [35:31 - 37:48]: Everybody has to go through themselves. Books, seminars, speeches, talks, which I do, they all help, but they aren't the. The change. They can be a catalyst for somebody to go, ah. And that's one of the reasons why I speak is because somebody, they can hear you live, rather than just putting a post out. And when they hear you speak and you talk about certain situations or challenges you had and, you know, losing a job or growing up with somebody in the family who struggled with mental health, that there's other people that have gone through or going through those, and when they hear you talk about them, they can then decide, hang on a second, it's not just me, maybe I can do something about this. Because so much stuff we see on social media this day and age, people don't always believe that they can change, but they have to want to change. And that's the biggest thing. As I said, it's not easy. It's simple, but it's not always easy because of the conditioning, the social circles we. And the environments we frequent. The idea is that when people understand and they become more aware of that situation, that's me. That somebody else has changed and somebody else has done something about it or how do you do that? Then they're more likely to buy into it rather than just reading, you know, a book about somebody that went up Mount Everest in their underpants or swam across the Pacific Ocean, you know, in 24 hours or something ridiculous like. Yeah, these people. I'm not knocking people that try and do that stuff. Great. But not everybody is in that situation that can associate with that or resonate with that. It's more about the people that are in difficult situations through work, through their own upbringing, that are trying to become successful, being successful and pushing themselves to an extent, but they don't know how to actually change or how to improve without driving themselves into the ground. So that's the. That's, to me, is the important thing.

Sadaf Beynon [37:48 - 38:03]: Yeah. And it's incredible, actually, how powerful story can be, isn't it? Like, as you're talking, I'm thinking about that woman who came to you at the end of your first talk when she was crying. It's that there's something in your story that resonated with her.

James Bargeron [38:04 - 38:32]: Yeah. You don't. You don't. Yes, exactly. And that's what they are, is that people can relate to those sorts of things. But I can promise you I never actually intended to go out and do that. Speaking was the farthest thing from my mind when. From years ago, I remember I couldn't even speak at my own wedding, to be honest with you. So, yes, there is. There is possibility for change.

Sadaf Beynon [38:32 - 38:46]: Yes, absolutely. One of the things. Actually, no, I'm going to come back to that. Tell me, in your self evaluation, what were some of the most profound lessons that you learned about yourself?

James Bargeron [38:47 - 41:01]: That I didn't have to be number one. You know, it was only through that evaluation, and the only way I can put it, is like being on the inside of a small sports car, is that you can't see what it looks like from the outside. And it's only when you do that you realize that, hang on a second, I was doing that and I was doing that and join those dots. And the real evaluation was that I had to Be, I had to be successful. It wasn't a case of I wanted to be, I had to be, I had to be become number one. There was just this insatiable drive, I suppose as a kid, and it was only when I evaluated that is that I had to be successful in order to be, to feel validated. And so that got me somehow into shipping and it fitted like a hand in a glove on the, on in what I did as a broker. This constant drive, this incessant working to be successful to the finance and the life that went with it and everything else. And it just seemed natural, but I could never take my foot off the pedal. And that's the way that I was always taught that you had to be to be successful was you had to keep going 24 hours a day and if you did stop, you were weak and all the rest of it. But it was only when I evaluated as well as I said, I, I thought I was doing it for my family, but it was really a, the success was in order to satisfy and validate me as a, as a, I suppose a young, a young boy who wanted to be successful.

Sadaf Beynon [41:01 - 41:15]: Where did that come from? Because you said, you know, you, you had that as a young, as a young boy and before you even started working. What, what was it that was wanting or that made you think that success equaled validation?

James Bargeron [41:17 - 43:25]: Money. Money. And success was just the way I'd been only through this evaluation was what I equated to being validated. Oh, if I am successful, if I have plenty of money, if I have all the trappings that go with that, then you are, you feel significant, you feel that you matter, you feel validated. And rather than looking at it, well, hang on a second. If I go and get a, a career and become successful and have enough and have some sort of harmony, I don't like work, life balance, because you can never really, it's more, more harmony in your work and your life at home with the family, then that would have been an awful lot better. But as I say, I, I was operating with what I knew at that particular time. I, I really didn't understand. It was just full on to be successful. And that was the way I went. It just comes from a, what I thought was a normal upbringing. It was far from that, to be honest with you, because, and I don't like speaking about it, but it's important, I believe is. My mother struggled with mental health most of my childhood and I suppose it was only when I was about in my 40s I suddenly scratched my head one day and thought that for all intents and purposes, I. We grew up with a one parent family because my mother spent so much time in a. In hospitals through mental health that my father did as much as he could on his own. And so to us it was normal. It was normality, but it was something we didn't really talk about, which made it even more difficult because there was a lot of blame and there probably will be a lot of blame involved. People see in this podcast if it gets out or when it gets out.

Sadaf Beynon [43:27 - 43:35]: No. Thank you for sharing that. Are you, are you okay for me to ask a question about that or do you sure.

James Bargeron [43:35 - 43:35]: No.

Sadaf Beynon [43:35 - 43:36]: Okay.

James Bargeron [43:36 - 43:44]: I'm open to anything because I'm sure there's other people out there that may, may want to hear or may resonate with some of the things I say. Hopefully.

Sadaf Beynon [43:44 - 43:57]: Yeah, for sure. How did then having your mom dealing with your mom's mental health issues, how did that shape your drive?

James Bargeron [43:57 - 46:02]: I. I can't honestly say I know except all it was was to win. Whether it was at football, whether it was any other sports, swimming, anything. As I said, I love sports. It was. I had to, I had to win. And it wasn't just partake. I. There was no two ways about it. I didn't get, I didn't throw tangent if we didn't win. I was just more determined that if we didn't win that next time I wanted to be the captain of the football team or whatever to make sure that we did win because I didn't want to walk off the football pitch ever again having lost or not won a game. And the idea at that time as a kid growing up of just partaking in sports was alien to me. And then at school as well. I went to a fairly decent school. I don't know how my dad got me through there, but anyway, I went through there. But it was demanding. It was Victorian in their mindset. But I enjoyed the time I was there through the sports. But again, it was a case of being on the football pitch or anything else in the sports environment was a case of having to win. Not not wanting to partake and win, but having to. Which is a difficult thing to, to. To carry through life. This, this, I suppose it's. It's not really a positive burning desire really when I look back and looked at it all, it was a negative burning desire to satiate this feeling of inadequacy. I suppose as a, as a kid that I'm not good enough, that I have to do this in order to justify myself. And I'm sure there's plenty of people out there that I, I know, I've seen from the things I've been doing over the last 10 years that are in a similar position, but the problem is that they struggle to come to terms with it.

Sadaf Beynon [46:02 - 46:04]: Yeah. What advice would you give that person.

James Bargeron [46:04 - 47:24]: Is to talk to people. Talk to people that know more than you do and have been down that route and can point you in a direction. And I'll make this very clear. Nobody needs to be fixed. You know, this is a big problem that people go around thinking, oh, there's something wrong with me. No, we're not. All we've, all we're doing is reevaluating the things that we have actually taken on board as truths when they're not truth. The things that we're not good enough that we have to validate ourselves, that, you know, there are guys out there that I've met and I know, and I'm sure plenty of other people know that doesn't matter how much money they've got, whether it's 1, 10, 50, 100 million, that they're not always going to be happy. And it's only when you question what the reason is behind that that you can then decide to do something about it. And I'm not saying that it's, you know, you shouldn't have those things, the money, whatever, by all means, do whatever makes you. That floats your boat. But if it's just doing it to fill a void, it's not necessarily healthy. We've got to find out what is it that fills that void that validates you as a person.

Sadaf Beynon [47:24 - 47:44]: I've got two young boys at home, and I'm sure a lot of our 9 and 11 going on 12, and I'm sure many of our listeners will have young boys in their lives, too. How can we help them at this.

James Bargeron [47:44 - 49:56]: Age, at that age? The two things, it's, it's not easy. A is to really love and support them, which we all think we do, but sometimes we can love them in the wrong way, which is by doing too much for them. And I've always said that the most difficult job in the world is being a mother, because I've seen what my wife has done over the last three decades. But also the second one is that being a dad because we're not given instruction manuals. And so we end up making mistakes. I know I have. And we pass those mistakes on down to our kids. And the real thing for me is to find out how we can love our kids but do it in a way that doesn't make them too hard nosed. We need a bit of resilience but we don't want to have the kids that go beyond resilience and then start becoming bitter and hardened by that. I mean having kids that really do feel that they can be themselves. They're not scared to speak what they feel the truth to share their feelings, their emotions, have empathy and realize is that go out and do what you really want to do to the best of your ability. But you don't have to always succeed just to be to justify your place in the world and that you do matter anyway. I think that's far more important if you get kids that are raised and they're in loving environments rather than these environments that they have to do do things in order to feel that they've achieved and they matter. It's more detrimental to everybody concerned and it's, it's not, it's not a wimps way out, trust me. It's. You bring. We. It makes the kids far more rounded and better. Better people.

Sadaf Beynon [49:56 - 50:14]: Yeah, I'm, I'm sure and yeah, I totally understand and agree with what you're saying. Parenting them in a way that they do come out more well rounded is, is a, is a gift to them totally. James, you were saying earlier in our conversation that pressure is what leads to stress.

James Bargeron [50:14 - 50:15]: Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon [50:15 - 50:17]: Can you talk a bit more about that?

James Bargeron [50:18 - 54:55]: Yeah. Pressure, which is basically interference, that and conditioning rather than just going out and say you want to achieve something is for me that pressure was to always be number one. It didn't matter what happened because once you get to a certain level of success, whether it was in business or on the football field, is that well, what's next? What's next? There was never any satisfaction, if you see what I mean, because of this drive and that's the type of pressure I'm talking about. It's unhealthy pressure. We all have deadlines, we all have things, targets we want to reach in life. It doesn't matter whether it's business, personal, relationship wise or things like that. But it's the unhealthy pressure that doesn't really do us any good. Constant pressure because if we don't have any respite then we just end up killing ourselves. You know, if you, if you look at the data and the information that's available now that all ill health, mental health, it all comes down to some form of stress and I don't mean that. So stress or you know, coronation Streets only on once this week or something like that. I'm talking about the constant stress that we put our bodies under through what we eat, the mental health that we're under, the pressure, the stress related to working longer hours in toxic environments with toxic people, unnecessary deadlines, communication, and all sorts of other things that no wonder we aren't really enjoying the life that we should. Up to the eight people say we're living to, you know, 80, 85 longer now. But we're not living longer, healthier lives. We're living. We're just being alive. And so if we look at stress or pressure, how we can use pressure to our advantage again, that comes back to awareness and understanding of it. If we understand how it works and what it does and the effects, we can do something about it. It's how we communicate. Are we creating environments that we work in that are conducive to getting the best performance out of people, the most productive, harmonious relationships? No. Well, if you're not, find out what. What's causing the problems and where you're lacking in that and do something about it. Ultimately, we are all responsible. There's no one person that's responsible. If there is, in an organization, which there was in a company I used to work for years ago, that the whole day was determined by the look on his face when he walked in. You either knew it was going to be an okay day, a bad day, or a mediocre day. And it's that sort of situation, emotional contagion, as it's called, that it just causes problems and toxic environments. Could I have done something about it? Well, yes, if I understood what was going on, but I didn't. You just put up with it. And that's the thing, is that if we understand what causes the pressure, our way of thinking and the environments and the way people speak and the communication and the things that they do, then we have a choice. We can either change it, speak to the person, change, get a new job, look for a new job, change the relationship, or a myriad of other things. It's down to us, but it's understanding the situation first of all, and how we deal with pressure. Turn the pressure round wherever you can to use it to your advantage. You know, in sporting terms, people use that pressure to. To win, to push them forward, whereas some other people don't do it as well. And so they don't achieve what they want. We can use that in the same way in business. Well, hang on a second. We screwed up that time. How do we use that Pressure to win. How do we change things? But first of all, we have to understand how that works before we can implement it. And that's the big thing, is by talking about it on here and things like that, that people can think, oh, yeah, I can do that.

Sadaf Beynon [54:56 - 55:07]: Yeah, yeah, no, that. That's really good. I like what you said about the emotional contagion, that unless you understand what it is you're dealing with, you can't actually make a change.

James Bargeron [55:07 - 55:10]: No, people just put up with it, unfortunately.

Sadaf Beynon [55:10 - 55:16]: Yeah. So how do you then manage your pressure? How do you recharge your batteries?

James Bargeron [55:16 - 56:49]: Again, that's another great question. It's very different from what it was years ago because the only outlet I had was to go and play soccer and football. And I say that just because I've been talking to somebody from the States earlier. And so football or soccer, that was my outlet back then, but I don't play that anymore. Got a bad spine, back injury, which curtailed that for a number of years. So these days, golf and swimming is doing things that are active. But golf is terrific, though it does cause a lot of pressure to some people. I've never found that. It just. I find it being outside in nature and with other people is a form of relaxation. Anything that's really going to give your mind a break, meditation, I know it's not for everybody, but it's not as difficult as it may seem. Starting out with a few minutes a day, even two or three minutes, it just breaks that cycle of always being on a. A wheel that's revolving at a fast pace is we need to break things up. And the thing is that the really, really top performers all know how to take time out to recover. And if we don't do that, then that's where we go downhill quicker than we actually anticipate. So doing any of those things that gives the mind a rest and the body.

Sadaf Beynon [56:50 - 57:07]: Yeah, absolutely. And going back to what you said earlier too, again about, you know, self evaluation, really understanding and knowing yourself, you have a better idea of what your. What you need to be able to de. Stress or take pressure off or, you know, to recharge your batteries.

James Bargeron [57:07 - 58:03]: Yeah, exactly. And going back what we were talking about earlier, when I first got out the corporate world, that when I started to look at why was that person successful and why was that company? And as I said, there were certain people doing certain things, and I now know that the guys that were really at the top of their game were those that look after themselves, whereas all the others just kept pushing themselves. No we got to be on the ball all the time. Getting home from work 8 or 9 o'clock at night and being on the phone for an hour, finding out what the markets were doing in the States and then being up at 4 o'clock in the morning to find out what Tokyo's been doing. These guys knew what to look after themselves and do certain things. And that's why they were able to deal with the pressure an awful lot more because they learned how to break the cycle, the habits.

Sadaf Beynon [58:03 - 58:04]: Yeah.

James Bargeron [58:04 - 58:34]: So that it wasn't just physically, it was mentally. They were alert and they didn't kill themselves and burn themselves out during the process of it. That's what made the difference of the real high performers. They, they became aware, they understood what, what happened to their minds and body so they could do something about it. And the problem was most of the other people, and I was one of them, you just got to, oh, keep working. And the ego was involved about, you got to push harder and harder as opposed to going, you know what, take a time out.

Sadaf Beynon [58:34 - 58:44]: Yeah, no, that's, that's really helpful, thank you. So James, where, where do you see your, where do you see growth in your life, in your work?

James Bargeron [58:45 - 1:00:35]: Speaking is the first thing really is to do more of that in order to connect with more people that can actually resonate with what I've experienced. And so as I say, that's more than just writing blog posts and LinkedIn posts, which are important, but it's when you speak and you can actually talk to people and they can buy into it. So that's an area that is important, but it's also, I suppose, getting to a point of safety, security and peace, which might sound a little bit woo woo, but I think we all would like that idea of waking up with a. And not feeling emotional turmoil in the morning about what that work I've got to do and enjoy that inner peace that you can feel. Do you know what? I feel secure. I don't have to chase this. I don't have to when I don't have to succeed and all the rest of it that push that into, you know what I'm just going to enjoy today and I can just do something and feel free from that, that constant pressure to achieve. So does it come in an instant? No, it doesn't. I suppose it's a, it's a, it's a journey that you go on and it takes time. So I'm still doing that just to get to a point where you can go, you know what? I don't I don't really care. I don't need all the crap anymore.

Sadaf Beynon [1:00:36 - 1:01:00]: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, like, we. We, you know, we're always rubbing shoulders with. With people, and people fail and we fail each other and we don't always get things right. So I guess there's a level of having to adapt to that, as you say, like, getting, you know, getting to the point where, like, actually, I don't care about that. I'm not going to get hung up on that. I'm going to stay the course.

James Bargeron [1:01:01 - 1:02:40]: Absolutely. And I think that's a big point, is getting to a point where I think it was Lee Westwood. I don't know if you know anything about golf, but I. I love golf. And Lee Westwood said a few years ago, when he started playing really well, he was asked by a reporter, he said, well, why do you think you're actually playing so well? And he said, because I. I don't give a. Anymore. He said, I really. I don't. I don't care anymore is when he's playing the game. He said, because once I've hit the ball, I can't do anything about it. And he said, it's taken me 25 years to get to that point. It wasn't overnight. And he said, it's so liberating, is that I can do it, but when it's gone, I don't care. And then I can go and find the ball again and this sort of stuff. And I think that's a great analogy we have with life, is you can only do the best you can if you're doing the best you can. You know that freedom to go. Do you know what? I don't care what happens next. There are more important things than to go back to your question. I suppose the biggest thing in growth is to build up the better relationships. Because when we get to that point, which we all do, or we all will, when we evaluate our lives again, when we're a little bit older and we're getting close to turning the lights out, as it were, is that we will reflect and go, hang on a second. Should I have worked harder? No. Should I have had more money? Or maybe. But did I. Should I have had more friends? And the friends and relationships and memories and those sorts of things which I think are so important because that's what we're here for as people.

Sadaf Beynon [1:02:40 - 1:02:55]: Yeah. Yeah. At the heart of it, we are relational, aren't we? And to build those is probably. Well, putting our effort into that is probably more, far more worth it than into Finances.

James Bargeron [1:02:55 - 1:03:25]: Totally. And I think. Because the funny thing is. Yeah, you're right. Because the strange thing is a lot of people don't realize that connections, relationships are the creators of all those things. All these people that say, oh, my self made man. No, you didn't make it all yourself. You had help somewhere along the way, however small it may be, but you didn't do anything on your own. In order to make though the money you have to build those relationships, they're far more important than anything else.

Sadaf Beynon [1:03:25 - 1:03:37]: Absolutely. James, I'm conscious of time and I know you. You've got things to get on with as well, so. And I want to be respectful of that. How do people reach you?

James Bargeron [1:03:38 - 1:03:58]: They can find me on LinkedIn, my name, which is at the bottom of the screen, James Bargeron. Or they can look on my website, which is my name, jamesbargeron.com if you want to know a little bit more about me that you haven't found on here, or if you want to get in contact and I can help or speak or do anything, by all means, I'd love to connect.

Sadaf Beynon [1:03:59 - 1:04:11]: Fantastic. Yes, absolutely. Reach out to James. We will link to his info in the show notes, which you can get for free along with the transcript at Push to be more dot com.

James Bargeron [1:04:11 - 1:04:13]: Great. Thanks very much for having me.

Sadaf Beynon [1:04:13 - 1:04:59]: Oh, no, James, honestly, it's been our pleasure. Thank you. Well, that's a wrap on another great conversation. A massive thanks to James for joining us and for sharing a part of his inspiring journey with us. For transcript or show notes, do swing by our website pushtobemore.com and a big thanks to today's sponsor, Podjunction, for all you changemakers out there contemplating podcasting as your new vehicle of experience, expression and connection, Definitely connect with us at podjunction.com don't forget to follow the show wherever you get your podcasts because we've got some seriously compelling conversations coming your way and we do not want you to miss any of them. So from James and from me, thanks for joining in. Have an awesome week and we'll join you again next time. Bye for now.